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I suggest that this video of a supposed angel be put on the Unexplained forum.
In order to keep those damned atheists away from dismissing it offhand and so eliminating atheist bias, I suggest that it just be presented as an "unexplained" without religious attachment.
The bias will still be in favor of some sort of woo thing just because there are more of those that believe in the supernatural than there are skeptics.
Do it jeff and see how it stands up
And yet they provide countless comments about God being sadistic and cruel as if He really existed.
I see no problem with that for two reasons. Either one of which would rubbish your point, but together it annihalates it.
The first is that this is something we do all the time. We can evaluate the characters in books "as if they existed" quite easily because humans have the capability of representing even fictional characters in the brain. Why only recently I was co-teaching an English Literature class where we evaluated the character of Iago in Othello. Do I have to think Iago exists in order to do this? Clearly not. So why should the same be expected of the evaluation of the god character you fetishize?
The second is that many people in the world hold themselves to the moral and ethical standards of their god. So such a god does not need to exist in order for us to judge the standards of both those people, and the god they are fetishizing. The character of this god, real or imagined, is having very real impacts in our world and hence evaluation of this is necessary and valid.
So no, not seeing your issue here _at_ _all_. Nor have you clarified it clearly in any way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
This is one of the biggest old hat copouts. To maintain this position, you have to tell me that you believe in nothing. But that's not what I get from atheism. You claim as if it is concrete fact that God is a myth.
Yes you are right, pretending atheists claim this IS one of your biggest old hat copouts. Nice of you to start your post with an accurate description of what you were putting in it.
The vast majority of athiets make no such claim. Their claim is there there is no reason whatsoever on offer to think there is a god so we simply proceed in life without that assertion. Simple as that.
But as usual with the simple and easy atheist arguments, your only remaining tactic is to make up other claims and pretend they are making those instead. Because you _simply_ _can_ _not_ rebutt the actual things actual people actually say.
The vast majority of athiets make no such claim. Their claim is there there is no reason whatsoever on offer to think there is a god so we simply proceed in life without that assertion. Simple as that.
I think it all boils down to one big difference : an atheist will nearly always be willing to admit they were wrong if presented with irrefutable proof (would love to see that angel video though) while a fundamentalist most probably and often will not and even sometimes go to the extent as to refute those proofs we actually already have.
It's all a big fear of the sentence "I don't know". They'd rather blindly believe contradictory nonsense and cherrypick through it for easier living than admit they don't know.
A bit childish in my opinion but hey, one sometimes need something to get going.
I don't believe in the tooth fairy either, but I also don't spend every day ranting and raving against it either.
It is possible that you don't actually understand why people make an issue about the intercession of the dominant religion into secular life? I think many of us make the assumption that everyone is intelligent and aware enough to know but perhaps that's a mistake. Let's dispense with that confusion here and now:
People who don't believe in someone else's God generally don't "rant and rave" against it, but rather advocate against the unjust exploitation of inordinate power put to the task of insinuating the beliefs and values of one religion into the public arena and therefore into the skins, into the families, and into the worship of people who hold other beliefs and values.
My cousin is a very devout Jew. You don't read any reports of atheists or agnostics criticizing devout Jews here in Georgia. The atheists and agnostics here still have the same beliefs, and the Jews still have the same beliefs, yet there is no "rating and raving". The only place you see any significant criticisms regarding devout Jews is in the areas where they hold and abuse excessive power to insinuate their religion into public life - where they have localized dominion. You see such criticisms directed against mainline and evangelical Christians more often, because they have and abuse that kind of power more.
No one should be condemning anyone's veneration of their chosen myths when they engage in such activity in the privacy of their own skin, their own family, their own worship. It is only when people bring that to work, or bring that into the government, or bring that onto the street, that condemnation is even remotely relevant.
Except old YHWH didn't just order the adult men or people culpable. He ordered everyone to be put to the sword.
Let's see, do you have complete knowledge of the future? No? Then it is an unfair judgement without all the facts. So without all the facts, you are basically claiming that you could come up with a more moral solution that God who created your brain and is infinitely more wise. Maybe God knew that sparing anyone of that culture would only lead to a new cycle of violence and torture with the next generation.
And the Bible pretty much shows what happened whenever God's commands were not followed. The Israelites became slaves.
It is possible that you don't actually understand why people make an issue about the intercession of the dominant religion into secular life? I think many of us make the assumption that everyone is intelligent and aware enough to know but perhaps that's a mistake. Let's dispense with that confusion here and now:
People who don't believe in someone else's God generally don't "rant and rave" against it, but rather advocate against the unjust exploitation of inordinate power put to the task of insinuating the beliefs and values of one religion into the public arena and therefore into the skins, into the families, and into the worship of people who hold other beliefs and values.
You make it sound like Christians are ruling society with an iron fist and supressing other beliefs.
For one thing, if the OP is true then secularism is winning and Christianity has less influence. By that token, shouldn't I be seeing less posting by atheists? It appears to me that there is even more
Sorry but this does not reflect the reality I see on the message boards. Here's a bit I found this morning from a Christian:
Quote:
Not to long ago, I was in an atheist chat room for about half an hour where I was repeatedly insulted, told that I was stupid, that I couldn't think properly, mocked, cussed at, etc. It was the usual fare from the atheists. I remained calm and eventually asked the question, "Why do you atheists hate God?" I knew the question would get an interesting response. It did. Foul language, insults, lies, misrepresentations, hatred, condemnation, and more. But woven throughout the numerous insults was the most common answer: "We don't hate what does not exist!"
When you hate someone, you speak evil of him, say negative things about him, call him names, accuse him of wrongdoing, lying, etc. That is exactly what they were doing to me. So, I pointed out that they were expressing great hatred towards me. And, since verbal condemnations reveal how a person feels about someone, I pointed out to them that their same behavior aimed at God demonstrated their hatred for God because they often condemn the God of Scripture. I told them that I have visited their room many times and read and heard their numerous hate filled condemnations for the God of the Bible.
Hmm sounds familiar. Oh yea, that's pretty much the exact treatment I get from atheists. If the criticism of Christian stemmed solely from abuse of power and influence then the focus of atheist conversation would be on those aspects of society and legal arguments. Instead, the focus of many threads is to make Christians look stupid and rip the Bible apart to shreds. When an atheist dedicates massive amounts of time by going through the Bible verse by verse to find anything they can attack, that speaks of something more than just frustration. When even you refer to my faith as "myths" instead of a more respectful term like "beliefs" that also proves my point.
Bottom line, freedom of religion and freedom from religion can not completely co-exist. One side has to give to the other. The OP demonstrates a desire to have complete freedom of religion where Christianity is destroyed forever.
You make it sound like Christians are ruling society with an iron fist and supressing other beliefs.
No, that's not how I made it sound. I made it sound like Christians have regularly engaged in unjust Dominionism to the detriment of those of other beliefs. And that's precisely the case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
For one thing, if the OP is true then secularism is winning and Christianity has less influence.
Correct - a wrong is being progressively mitigated. What's your point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
By that token, shouldn't I be seeing less posting by atheists?
Are you saying that less intimidation means you should hear less about bullying? Are you saying that less unfair stigma affixed to being the victim of rape means you should hear less about the crime as it is still being committed? Are you saying that when political oppression in some country is eased that you should hear less about the injustices in that country? If so, then you aren't thinking very clearly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
If the criticism of Christian stemmed solely from abuse of power and influence then the focus of atheist conversation would be on those aspects of society and legal arguments.
You mean the focus would be like my comments? How about you talk to me about my comments instead of trying to deflect?
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Instead, the focus of many threads is to make Christians look stupid and rip the Bible apart to shreds.
Many Christians post self-ratifying rhetoric. The fact that doing so is without merit is wholly on the Christians who try to base comments that apply beyond themselves on such comments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
When even you refer to my faith as "myths" instead of a more respectful term like "beliefs" that also proves my point.
That's self-delusion. "Myth" describes the writing. "Belief" describes your relation to them. If you cannot respect English enough to engage in the discussion with integrity how can you place any such expectations on others?
You make it sound like Christians are ruling society with an iron fist and supressing other beliefs.
No. Not any more. They had their day at that. They lost their grip. To the benefit of all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
For one thing, if the OP is true then secularism is winning and Christianity has less influence. By that token, shouldn't I be seeing less posting by atheists? It appears to me that there is even more
I would be surprised if it was otherwise actually. We are in a period of transition as a species now. A transition that has been ongoing for some time and will continue to be for some time. We are putting behind us our superstitions, losing any credibility and basis for everything from supernaturalism to racism and sexism and homophobia and much more.
And in a period of transition of that sort you enter new ground, unfamiliar ground and conversation for that reason goes up, not down, on such issues as we find our way together as a species through this new territory.
Couple that with the fact that you always get push back against such change and uncertainty, which gets more shrill and desperate.... as your own posts demonstrate frequently.... the more ground it loses. And you will in turn get further push back against those vocal elements.
So no, my expectation given all I know about how our species operates is actually the exact opposite of what you appear to expect and I, unlike you, have just given you the foundations for my expectations. Yours are still unclear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Sorry but this does not reflect the reality I see on the message boards. Here's a bit I found this morning from a Christian:
I explained to you yesterday in a post how much of the negativity you get from interactions with atheists is because you deliberately illicit that kind of response. I summarized this with the phrase "Its not them, its you". Your claimed theistic chat room user is another example of this.
He went into an atheist chat room and, in full knowledge of the trolling he was doing, asked a question that encompasses a massive misrepresentation of atheists, displays a lack of all credibility in the question content, and much worse. He went into a chat room therefore with the express intent to troll it, and then he like you are acting like somehow the atheists are at fault.
The fact is the troll is at fault in that story. Every time. If you troll a community, nearly ANY community, you will get a similarly negative response. What you are dishonestly doing is cherry picking one example of such trolling, in this case against atheists, and feeding it into your anti atheist narrative as if you can hold it up and decry "Look this is how atheists typically act".
The simple fact of reality is you would get the same response out of innumerable communities. Go into a gaming forum with the deliberate trolling mantra that Grand Theft Auto causes children to think rape and violence are ok, and therefore it should be banned. You will get _exactly_ the same response for that trolling. Would I be at ALL honest to hold up their response and rant "Look, this is typical behaviour of gamers!!!!"? No I would not.
Or, in summary again: It really is not them, it really is you.
As I keep pointing out, you have an anti atheist agenda and an anti atheist narrative and you are in no even tiny way opposed to cherry picking or misrepresenting the data set in any way you can to feed that narrative. And it appears the only one falling for it on this entire forum is you yourself.
Maybe God knew that sparing anyone of that culture would only lead to a new cycle of violence and torture with the next generation.
Maybe God could remember that he is not a respecter of persons and let the young children and unborns that he slaughtered (or commanded to be slaughtered) to grow up and perhaps change their ways?
Oh yeah, God (the non respecter of persons) had his "chosen people". These pagan kids are on the outs from the get go. Why not have his "chosen people" lop off their heads?
Apparently you would rather rationalize these types of OT stories than experience the cognitive dissonance that comes along with trying to square these genocidal acts with the "God is Love" gospel being pitched by Christians today.
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