Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It wasn't a boast, it was a defense against someone generalizing the religious as something other than sweet and loving.
The three celebrities who give the most are atheists?! I'm sure there are all kinds of Christian celebrities!
If there is no boasting about such atheist celebrities giving their money away, then how is it that you know that they even give money away, let alone the most of all celebrities?
Because they can't make any movements without cameras on their backs.
Religious people give more of their money, donate more of their blood and volunteer more of their time than secular people.
Am I to presume that they give more because they are religious?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haaziq
For one thing, secular people don't feel the need to brag about it nor do they need to do it in the name of secularism. The three celebrities who give more to the unfortunate than anyone else are atheists. Angelina Jolie, George Clooney, and Bill Gates are all atheists.
Don't need to brag about it huh? Interesting because I sure have heard alot about Angelina Jolie and her adoptions. She even had Bawa Walters interview her about it. I'll just assume she walked into the interview by mistake. And nobody heard about Gates and Buffet and their megabillion foundation.. nobody at all.
The argument that one group is better than another group because of how much they give is flawed.. people give for selfish reasons.
The argument that one group is better than another group because of how much they give is flawed.. people give for selfish reasons.
If i recall, the argument was who gave more of their money. When one tries to quantize value based on our view of things such as humility or relative wealth, it becomes a different matter. If Bill Gates forced people to make a long survey asking how good looking he was before giving millions to charity, it wouldn't change the fact that he's still giving out money. Heck you might as well say that the secular philanthropists do not count or are not as good because they do not necessarily say a prayer right before they do.
The truth is simply that good natured people will do good regardless of religious pressure
Location: land of quail, bunnies, and red tail hawks
1,513 posts, read 3,379,845 times
Reputation: 3538
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
I think it's a wonderful thing when something that promotes an invocation of fear can be broken up!
First, you state you don't believe a god exists, nor do you believe in an afterlife or eternal punishment. So, what do YOU have to fear? Why does this upset YOU so? People can invoke fear as much as they want, but if I don't think there's anything to be fearful of, I ignore them and go on my merry way. Others can be fearful for me; that's their problem, not mine.
If you've got the idea that Christians are fearful and that's the only reason they believe so you're trying to protect them from themselves, then you're barking up the wrong tree. The vast majority of Christians I know aren't the least bit fearful. They see God as a best friend, so they think there's nothing for them to fear. They might be grieved and/or fearful on behalf of the unsaved, but that's their problem. Pseudo Christians who go through the motions in the hope of escaping hell might be fearful for themselves and even you, but--again--that's their problem.
For someone who doesn't think there's anything to fear, it seems like you're taking this fear idea way too personally.
Second, what's wrong with fear? There is such a thing as healthy fear. Most people fear the ramifications of driving drunk, so they avoid doing so. Others fear AIDS or STD's, so they practice "safe" sex or avoid sharing needles. Some fear house fires, so they get their chimneys checked annually. Others rotate, balance, and replace tires on vehicles in order to avoid a blowout on busy roads. Women walk in groups to avoid attack. Mailmen carry pepper spray to avoid dog bites, and people in bear country make lots of noise because they don't want to be munched. People avoid certain neighborhoods or going out at night for fear of violence. Fear can be good.
You think fear of God and/or hell is irrational. So is the fear of such things as airplanes, doctors, and dentists. You take a great deal of effort to show people there's nothing to fear about a "non-existent" being and place. How much effort do you make to help alleviate people's fears of very real things?
Finally, there are some people who fear God. After all, the Bible says the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. It also says not to fear the person who can harm the body, but to fear the God who can destroy both body and soul in hell. This kind of fear is apparently a good thing; at least it is in the eyes of believers.
This fear is a very real conviction for the person. You're highly unlikely to dissuade him of such fear. Furthermore, the person is happy in his beliefs and is generally doing no harm to others. In fact, this person is usually trying to be a good parent, citizen, and human being. It may, in fact, be fear of God that prompts the person to display all those good attributes. It's actually the people who have no fear of authority that cause most of the problems in daily life. So, why in the world do you want to save people from fear that is most likely motivating them to be good?
Like I said, this issue seems to be very personal for you. My question is: Why?
-----
(BTW, I don't think religious wars are started by people who fear God, but leaders will use such people to carry out the war. Since my post is talking about everyday people in everyday life, please don't even start on religious wars. It's a debate for another time.)
Location: land of quail, bunnies, and red tail hawks
1,513 posts, read 3,379,845 times
Reputation: 3538
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop
Well Pat Robertson is always on TV saying that people died in massive hurricanes, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc... because they turned their backs on God. My opinion is this.... So not only is God smiting us when we get to judgement day, he's continued his Old Testament style disaster inducement to punish those who turn from him. Except, now, he doesn't come right out and say it like he did back then. Yep, makes perfect sense.
The God of the Bible claims to be unchanging. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. So, it's probable that He is disciplining the world, even in today's times.
The people in the Old Testament didn't believe God even when He did speak through His Prophets. Do you think we'd be any different today? Besides, Jesus said the Son would be the last person sent. There'd be no more Prophets (with a capital "P").
God gave mankind something better than a Prophet; He gave us his Word. People who know God should know His precepts and should recognize His intervention throughout history. God is still at work today, and some people recognize the signs. Furthermore, not all Biblical prophecy has been fulfilled. Some Christians know prophecy and see the world lining up the way the Bible predicted. They're quietly warning friends and neighbors; some are even shouting the news from the rooftop and in the media.
However, people don't want to hear the message; they don't want to believe. People don't want to face the idea that life as they know it may be about to end. People want to hear only good news about a good and loving God. They don't want to recognize that Jesus is also known as the Righteous Judge. So, the people who see the danger and are trying to warn others are ridiculed and marginalized. Some are jailed. Others are killed. Just like in the Old Testament.
I'm curious why you see this as a good thing? As a believer, I would see it as just the opposite. This country was founded as a Christian nation (I know you disagree, but this is true) and I see this as the reason we have been so blessed. Once we as a nation turn from God, I see only negative things happening.
Turning away from profit driven commercial churchianity is not turning away from God. It is fleeing a corrupt apostate church. I have difficulty finding a good church. It is better for me to fellowship at home with other believers.
First, you state you don't believe a god exists, nor do you believe in an afterlife or eternal punishment. So, what do YOU have to fear? Why does this upset YOU so? People can invoke fear as much as they want, but if I don't think there's anything to be fearful of, I ignore them and go on my merry way. Others can be fearful for me; that's their problem, not mine.
If you've got the idea that Christians are fearful and that's the only reason they believe so you're trying to protect them from themselves, then you're barking up the wrong tree. The vast majority of Christians I know aren't the least bit fearful. They see God as a best friend, so they think there's nothing for them to fear. They might be grieved and/or fearful on behalf of the unsaved, but that's their problem. Pseudo Christians who go through the motions in the hope of escaping hell might be fearful for themselves and even you, but--again--that's their problem.
For someone who doesn't think there's anything to fear, it seems like you're taking this fear idea way too personally.
Second, what's wrong with fear? There is such a thing as healthy fear. Most people fear the ramifications of driving drunk, so they avoid doing so. Others fear AIDS or STD's, so they practice "safe" sex or avoid sharing needles. Some fear house fires, so they get their chimneys checked annually. Others rotate, balance, and replace tires on vehicles in order to avoid a blowout on busy roads. Women walk in groups to avoid attack. Mailmen carry pepper spray to avoid dog bites, and people in bear country make lots of noise because they don't want to be munched. People avoid certain neighborhoods or going out at night for fear of violence. Fear can be good.
You think fear of God and/or hell is irrational. So is the fear of such things as airplanes, doctors, and dentists. You take a great deal of effort to show people there's nothing to fear about a "non-existent" being and place. How much effort do you make to help alleviate people's fears of very real things?
Finally, there are some people who fear God. After all, the Bible says the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. It also says not to fear the person who can harm the body, but to fear the God who can destroy both body and soul in hell. This kind of fear is apparently a good thing; at least it is in the eyes of believers.
This fear is a very real conviction for the person. You're highly unlikely to dissuade him of such fear. Furthermore, the person is happy in his beliefs and is generally doing no harm to others. In fact, this person is usually trying to be a good parent, citizen, and human being. It may, in fact, be fear of God that prompts the person to display all those good attributes. It's actually the people who have no fear of authority that cause most of the problems in daily life. So, why in the world do you want to save people from fear that is most likely motivating them to be good?
Like I said, this issue seems to be very personal for you. My question is: Why?
-----
(BTW, I don't think religious wars are started by people who fear God, but leaders will use such people to carry out the war. Since my post is talking about everyday people in everyday life, please don't even start on religious wars. It's a debate for another time.)
I think you need to go back and re-read what I meant about fear. I'm talking about the fear of others. The fear that anyone who is not a Christian is somehow misaligned and destined for some sort of eternal mishap.
Perhaps you don't see it, Blueberry. You don't encounter the looks of utter astonishment when someone finds out you're an atheist. Why be astonished? Why should I have to fear people's reactions? Why can't I become a normal part of society without some sort of pious attitude everywhere I go? I don't get strange looks when I tell people I'm a democrat. I don't get strange looks or fear people when I tell them I'm a Ford and not a Chevy guy. I don't get strange looks or fear people's reactions when I tell them I think women should be allowed in combat roles. People might disagree, but it's only within religion that I have found an abhorrence to me as a person. ONLY with religion. I've never been told I'm a horrible person because I'm a bit liberal, a Ford guy, or that I think women should be allowed in combat. Yet, with religion I've been told as such, I've been told I'm wrong, I've been told I'm going to hell, I've been told I can't be a good person without having a belief in God. So what's to fear right???
What on earth should I have to fear about religion? No, I won't start on religious wars. We can talk about other things. We can talk about the fear of persecution from those who ARE religious. We can talk about the fear of being shunned from society from those who ARE religious. We can talk about the way you're treated differently BECAUSE you're an atheist.
My point in all of this is that I find churches (staples of religion) to promote the sort of "My way or the highway" type of thinking. I find that most Christians who are just willing to have their beliefs without shoving it down your throat I get along just perfectly with. Churches don't offer that because churches are businesses. Like it or not, they depend on a body count in order to stay operational. And, in order to have that body count they have to promote a specific "brand" in order to stay afloat.
That's what I have to fear, Blueberry. To me, churches are fear factories. I'm not afraid of God. I'm not afraid of the Devil. I'm not afraid of any of that. I'm afraid of the streamlined thinking that churches promote and that's why I said I was glad that I felt America perhaps may be coming to its' senses. I'm not directing it towards a belief in God or even the Christian faith but a direct, systematic belief fostered by some "parental organization".
Hopefully, America is coming to its' senses and realizing that churches/religious organizations have done lots of wrong in the past. Perhaps America is coming to its' senses and they are tired of hearing about priests molesting children, the Westboro Baptist Churches, the "Burn in Righteous Fire" pastors, and any other number of wonderful church organizations that testify about how "Good" they are while performing stunts like that. That's what I mean by America coming to its' senses.
The final thing I want to point out is that it doesn't seem like any real adherence to churches is necessary for people to maintain a belief in God. Heck, if I'm not mistaken, another poll showed that people switch churches and religious organizations in this country more than their cell phone carriers. I'll never understand how a person can grow up a Roman Catholic and get married to a Seventh-Day Adventist and then become a Seventh-Day Adventist at the drop of a hat or wedding ring. Perhaps people realize that it's not the church one goes to but their own cognition of what their faith means to them. Perhaps America is coming to its' senses and realizing that churches aren't necessary at all. That's what I was posting about, Blueberry.
Last edited by GCSTroop; 03-29-2008 at 09:17 AM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
