I'm still trying to get someone to... (bible, Israel, quote)

[TwentyFourSeven]

reconcile II Samuel 24:1 and I Chronicles 21:1 for me. I see an apparent contradiction here. Not only that, I also see a huge conundrum for the apologist. If he argues that God pushed ("moved") David to number the children of Israel only to turn around and get upset about it, then God comes off as some sadistic monster. If they argue he "uses" Satan to do his dirty work, you conclude the same thing.

There is clearly a contradiction here, however, I think the more interesting thing is I see an evolution in theological thinking which proves ancient people just made up things as they went along while modern day believers hold the idea such people were "inspired by God."

[CelticLady1]

Hmm, that was interesting; I just read those two verses. They do appear to be talking about the same incident, and if they are, they are definitely contradictory. Of course, I'm not a OT scholar, so it would be interesting to see how other people would view these pieces of scripture. I couldn't begin to try and reconcile those verses, (but then, I don't believe every word in the Bible is God's, in the first place). While some contradictory scripture can be explained, by placing them in proper context, there are many that cannot, no matter how they are looked at. Even using study materials, and listening to pastors and others, who purportedly have more knowledge, than the average lay-person, about the Bible, doesn't give satisfactory answers.

[Padgett2]

The real question seems to me to be "Why did God need to have the people counted?"

An all powerful God would certainly be aware of how many people were His. I can see how David might want to know exactly how many people that he could claim were to be under his control. Perhaps the ones doing the counting used God as an excuse. That sort of thinking goes on even today. If that's what was happening, I can understand why God was displeased.

I suspect that He is also very displeased with a lot of the happenings that are done in his name today. IMHO, too many so-called christians don't have the foggiest notion about what He approves of and what angers him.

[JViello]

WOW! Yet AGAIN you've convinced me, I'm TOTALLY leaving my faith. How could I have been so foolish!

After all, that's still the goal of your prostalitizing isn't it?

[TwentyFourSeven]

Originally Posted by CelticLady1

Hmm, that was interesting; I just read those two verses. They do appear to be talking about the same incident, and if they are, they are definitely contradictory. Of course, I'm not a OT scholar, so it would be interesting to see how other people would view these pieces of scripture. I couldn't begin to try and reconcile those verses, (but then, I don't believe every word in the Bible is God's, in the first place). While some contradictory scripture can be explained, by placing them in proper context, there are many that cannot, no matter how they are looked at. Even using study materials, and listening to pastors and others, who purportedly have more knowledge, than the average lay-person, about the Bible, doesn't give satisfactory answers.

Thanks for the reply CelticLady. There is actually an explanation to all of this. Just want to see some replies first.

[TwentyFourSeven]

Originally Posted by Padgett2

The real question seems to me to be "Why did God need to have the people counted?"

An all powerful God would certainly be aware of how many people were His. I can see how David might want to know exactly how many people that he could claim were to be under his control. Perhaps the ones doing the counting used God as an excuse. That sort of thinking goes on even today. If that's what was happening, I can understand why God was displeased.

I suspect that He is also very displeased with a lot of the happenings that are done in his name today. IMHO, too many so-called christians don't have the foggiest notion about what He approves of and what angers him.

Hmm...The story actually gets more ridiculous beyond this theological problem right out the gate. David feels condemned for the act and seeks God's forgiveness. He is given three choices and he chooses the one that brings a plague. David is NOT killed, being the main culprit, but 70,000 of his people die instead. What is also interesting is that in II Samuel we are told God was pissed off at Israel for some unspecified reason AND because he was, he prompted David to do something that was apparently against his will. Go figure, but then again, all of this is based on the assumption this story is even true OR the writer did not take a natural disaster that might have occurred and weaved a nice little theological point into it to enforce some bias.

[ShanaBrown]

The way I understand is that all is out of God (Romans 11) and I believe that He works all things according to the counsel of His will (Eph. 1) Just like the brothers of Joseph, for example, sold Joseph to the Ishmalites who sold him in Egypt. The brothers were wrong in their motives for sending him there, but it was God who ultimately sent him there according to His purposes. God moved David and used satan as his instrument to do this, but I believe that David's heart was wrongly motivated. This was his sin. It doesn't say this but I do have some notes in one of my Bibles which suggests this and says that David perhaps took the census in an improper manner depending on his own military strength instead of depending on God. (Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible) I did see that the word , "amar" translated as command (vs.17) spoken by David, can mean to "boast or act proudly." I believe that God used satan to show David something about himself. God bless.

[TwentyFourSeven]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

The way I understand is that all is out of God (Romans 11) and I believe that He works all things according to the counsel of His will (Eph. 1) Just like the brother's of Joseph, for example, sold Joseph to the Ishmalites who sold him in Egypt. The brothers were wrong in their motives for sending him there, but it was God who ultimately sent him there . God moved David and used satan as his instrument to do this, but I believe that David's heart was wrongly motivated. It doesn't say this but I do have some notes in one of my Bibles which suggests this and says that David perhaps took the census in an improper manner depending on his own military strength instead of depending on God. (Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible) God bless.

Hi Shana. First off I stumbled on to this site because of a search that led to one of your threads. Thanks for the invite.


Anyway, the part I bolded and underlined is problematic, don't you think? Does it not make God an accomplice? God consorts with his cosmic and eternal enemy to screw up things?

You see Shana, the way I see it is that the earlier book of Samuel reflects the old Israelite thinking that all things, good ad evil emanated from God, BUT that evil was necessary to fulfill his divine will. However, in later Jewish theological thinking, this had to be amended because it could not answer and/or created a huge problem in the realm of philosophy in dealing with a few age old problems:

1. If God is good why is there evil?

2. If God is all-powerful, why does he permit evil to continue?

3. If evil derives from God or he allows it, he is by definition guilty.

A culprit to pin evil on had to be found. The rest is history.

[ShanaBrown]

Hi Shana. First off I stumbled on to this site because of a search that led to one of your threads. Thanks for the invite.

Hi Twenty-Four-Seven, welcome to the site I think that I found this site by someone's thread that I found on a search also

Anyway, the part I bolded and underlined is problematic, don't you think? Does it not make God an accomplice? God consorts with his cosmic and eternal enemy to screw up things?

Well, I believe that all is out of God and that He has a purpose for both good and evil. This does not mean that He is evil but that He has a purpose for both in the great big scheme of things. Satan is out of him and I believe that he (satan) can be described as a tool that God uses to accomplish his purposes.

You see Shana, the way I see it is that the earlier book of Samuel reflects the old Israelite thinking that all things, good ad evil emanated from God, BUT that evil was necessary to fulfill his divine will. However, in later Jewish theological thinking, this had to be amended because it could not answer and/or created a huge problem in the realm of philosophy in dealing with a few age old problems:

1. If God is good why is there evil?

2. If God is all-powerful, why does he permit evil to continue?

3. If evil derives from God or he allows it, he is by definition guilty.

A culprit to pin evil on had to be found. The rest is history

I understand what you are saying, and this are valid questions, but like I shared, I believe that all is out of God, including evil but this doesn't mean that God is guilty of anything. I compare to someone who writes a script and puts all of the elements in the script. Say, for example, that murder is one of the elements. Does this make the writer himself or herself a murderer because murder is in the script? So I don't believe that because God is the orginator of evil does not mean that He Himself is evil but He uses evil to accomplish His purposes. God uses satan, I believe, in this instance to show David what was really in his heart on this matter. David, a man after God's own heart, still had to deal with something in his own heart. This is how I understand it and imo. Thanks for sharing and God bless.

[TwentyFourSeven]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Hi Twenty-Four-Seven, welcome to the site I think that I found this site by someone's thread that I found on a search also

Well, I believe that all is out of God and that He has a purpose for both good and evil. This does not mean that He is evil but that He has a purpose for both in the great big scheme of things. Satan is out of him and I believe that he (satan) can be described as a tool that God uses to accomplish his purposes.

I understand what you are saying, but like I shared, I believe that all is out of God, including evil but this doesn't mean that God is guilty of anything. I compare to someone who writes a script and puts all of the elements in the script. Say, for example, that murder is one of the elements. Does this make the writer himself or herself a murderer because murder is in the script? So I don't believe that because God is the orginator of evil does not mean that He Himself is evil but He uses evil to accomplish His purposes. This is how I understand it. Thanks for sharing and God bless.

Not necessarily saying God is evil because he does evil things, but that by association, he is an accomplice. Why does God need a agent, henchman to do dirty deeds? Can't he just do it himself? In the great scheme of Christian belief Satan did not create himself and God saw his work and hired him. He was a created being and supposedly, by extension, created by God WITH foreknowledge of the type of character he would be. That's troubling, don't you think?