Have current events made you re-assess morality? (Jews, Christians, believing)
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Back just a couple of months after I came to this forum five years ago, I put this up relative to this subject:
As far as very small children being good or bad---A child "wakes up" from the relative unconsciousness of infancy sometime during his second year of life. He immediately begins to demonstrate that far from being a "little angel," he is born determined to get his own way in everything. Furthermore, he is a born believer in the nefarious notion that the ends justify the means. Untutored in stealing, he begins to steal. Untutored in lying, he begins to lie. Untutored in defiance, he begins to defy. Untutored in violence, he begins to hit and bite when he doesn't get his way. Psychological explanations fail here. The only explanation is one based on a clear vision of human frailty...To wit, we are not good. We are bad. Born bad...bad to the bone! This is not a "choice", or a "path we choose"...it is the way we ALL are born. You say "babies don't have a clue"...WRONG! They TOTALLY have a clue...the purest of PURE HEDONISM! The evidence bears this out.
We NEED to be taught to be kind and generous...it is NOT our natural tendency. You DID SO have to learn tolerance, respect, and general acceptance of others.You may not have "learned it from a book", but you learned it from somewhere. You said yourself...We are taught pretty much everything. Before we are taught otherwise...our natural, categorical proclivity is to only "love" those who satisfy our desires and give us comfort...and to seek our own desire and comfort over all else. No person as a baby was ever different...unless they had mental problems that made them unaware of themselves.
As life goes on we are presented with all kinds of information. Like all other info, philosophical info is weeded through in our own way...and we choose what we do or don't accept. Logic, reason, intuition, and perception all come into play in making that determination. The more open your mind is to info...and the ways to obtain it...the more you will have to work with to come to conclusions that have merit. Since some things can't be known, no matter how much info we acquire...we are best served to never close our minds to any possibilities.
I have memories as far back as 6 weeks old and none were of any temperament other than happy. All my family can vouch. When my little brothers came into the picture all I could think of is love. Not all kids show the behavior you posted above. I have been around a few that were sweet and kind till this day.
I have memories as far back as 6 weeks old and none were of any temperament other than happy. All my family can vouch. When my little brothers came into the picture all I could think of is love. Not all kids show the behavior you posted above. I have been around a few that were sweet and kind till this day.
Well that's wonderful as well as exceptional that you were always fed before you got hungry, always changed before your diaper was filled, wet and cold, never had colic or even a gas bubble before burping, etc ,etc, etc.
Back just a couple of months after I came to this forum five years ago, I put this up relative to this subject:
As far as very small children being good or bad---A child "wakes up" from the relative unconsciousness of infancy sometime during his second year of life. He immediately begins to demonstrate that far from being a "little angel," he is born determined to get his own way in everything. Furthermore, he is a born believer in the nefarious notion that the ends justify the means. Untutored in stealing, he begins to steal. Untutored in lying, he begins to lie. Untutored in defiance, he begins to defy. Untutored in violence, he begins to hit and bite when he doesn't get his way. Psychological explanations fail here. The only explanation is one based on a clear vision of human frailty...To wit, we are not good. We are bad. Born bad...bad to the bone! This is not a "choice", or a "path we choose"...it is the way we ALL are born. You say "babies don't have a clue"...WRONG! They TOTALLY have a clue...the purest of PURE HEDONISM! The evidence bears this out.
We NEED to be taught to be kind and generous...it is NOT our natural tendency. You DID SO have to learn tolerance, respect, and general acceptance of others.You may not have "learned it from a book", but you learned it from somewhere. You said yourself...We are taught pretty much everything. Before we are taught otherwise...our natural, categorical proclivity is to only "love" those who satisfy our desires and give us comfort...and to seek our own desire and comfort over all else. No person as a baby was ever different...unless they had mental problems that made them unaware of themselves.
As life goes on we are presented with all kinds of information. Like all other info, philosophical info is weeded through in our own way...and we choose what we do or don't accept. Logic, reason, intuition, and perception all come into play in making that determination. The more open your mind is to info...and the ways to obtain it...the more you will have to work with to come to conclusions that have merit. Since some things can't be known, no matter how much info we acquire...we are best served to never close our minds to any possibilities.
I think Gldnrule, your perspective here is highly subjective and still says nothing about the tendencies babies are born with. All of the actions you describe, stealing, lying etc all come much later - from around age 2.5 - 3 years. And not all children lie or steal. These are learned behaviours not innate behaviours.
I notice you have focussed only on negative behaviours also. You mention no positive behaviours at all - hugging, sharing, caring etc.
I think to really get to the bottom of this we need to remain objective.
I've been reading about the studies I mentioned in my last post. It seems research shows that babies do know the difference between right and wrong and engage is some level of self sacrifice to make the 'good' choice ...up to a certain point when this is outweighed by advantageous payoffs for making the 'bad' choice.
You can read about the studies in some detail here:
Yeah, pretty much. What we see in the news today is exactly how it always has been and exactly how it always will be.
We can better understand our own behavior by observing the behavior of our cousins - the chimpanzees.
The chimps live in social groups and get along with others in that group pretty well. Biologists say the leader of the group is not a forceful tyrant, but rather treats the other chimps very fairly.
The group of chimps will live together peacefully until they have a conflict with another group. Then they attack the other group and eat them.
That's how we humans are. Most of us are very willing to live peaceful lives, but when our way of life is threatened we can be very mean to whoever is against us. This kind of behavior has helped us prosper for thousands of years and has made us what we are today.
Just to get back to you about the radio show I mentioned...
This show features two evolutionary psychologists Katie Slocombe and Keith Jensen. Katie Slocombe's work focusses primarily on chimp behaviour with a view to making guesses about how early human behaviour might have evolved (we split off from a common ancestor of chimps some 6 million years ago) and asks 'are humans unique?'.
You might find the show interesting to listen to. It basically agrees with what you said here ^.
To summarise, we have some shared traits such as capability to learn from others by observation; chimps also use tools and show some elements of social intelligence and show some precursers to language. However Slocombe also points only humans have what can really be defined as 'language'.
Also although chimps are able to learn by observation, their parents don't actually 'teach' their young (other animals such as Meercats do however). Also humans are far less aggressive.
It should be kept in mind I think that although chimps are our closest cousins - we split off from a common ancestor 6 million years ago and have come a long way since then. So although I think observation of chimps is useful, this doesn't mean we would behave the same way given the same circumstances or environment and in fact we can only use it to make guesses about how our common ancestor might have behaved. Chimps have evolved too and may well have evolved different behaviours over those 6 million years.
I'm not saying you don't realise that, of course I'm sure you do, but I'm just mentioning it here for clarity. I did appreciate the initial point you were making.
I think the critical thing is that we're making progress. Hiker45 is more or less correct in saying that people are innately good, but only within our "tribe." I honestly think we're making the transition from tiny tribes to bigger tribes and we're already making progress towards being one big tribe called "the human race." It's difficult of course. People want their silly little divisions. We tend to want to categorize ourselves just so we can be better than others. Self-identity doesn't have to be that way of course. The important thing is that we're fighting the good fight against the worst parts of our own natural selves. The overwhelming pessimism I'm seeing in this thread is understandable, but I think everyone fails to give humanity credit for just how far we've come.
I think you are right, maybe the point is not to focus on what we are born with but what we do with it.
I've been reflecting again over the last few days about how different Britain is from when I was growing up. Back then for example it was fairly common practice to be caned at school for particularly bad behaviour. Parents giving their kids a clip round the ear for bad behaviour was the norm rather than the exception. These days all those teachers and parents would be up in court for abuse.
Fortunately by the time I became a parent attitudes had changed a lot. I've never hit my kids and they are wonderful, even though I say it myself, they are living proof that aggression is unnecessary. They are also religion free. Yes we have come a long way. Unfortunately many societies (and religions) have a lot of catching up to do.
We're living in the most peaceful era of human history. Things seem bad because that's what people want to talk about. The bad things. Humans might just be sadists. We ignore the good and focus only on the bad.
Case and point: Bill Cosby. Allegedly, he raped multiple women. If this is true, that's terrible and he reasonably should answer for these crimes. But suddenly, people who used to enjoy his work stopped. Why? Why does his bad action outweigh his good? He's done more good than bad, I'd say. If the allegations against him are true, I do believe he needs to answer for him, but does this make him less of a comedian? No!
But it seems that this is actually a recent thing. Christopher Columbus is credited as being an excellent navigation and explorer. This is true. But the fact that he was indeed racist, a rapist, a pedophile (raped child slaves, which was common back in the day), and a murder is generally glossed over. Why? Just as with Bill Cosby, I don't think these actions necessarily negate the good he did, but why is it that NOW we view the bad as being more prevalent than the good?
To use a more individual example: felons. Let's say there's a 20 year old kid who gets in with the wrong crowd. He joins a gang and ends up killing someone. He goes to jail. He spends his time in jail working to better himself and upon release, he doesn't reconnect with his gang and he does everything he can to make an honest living. The thing is, few would want to afford him that chance. Even 30 years after his release, his criminal record will still keep him out of many jobs and a professional career. Why? One bad action due to poor circumstance makes someone lesser for the rest of their life?
Morality is a strange thing. ISIS is bad, but it is as bad as we make it out to be? I don't really think so. ISIS will probably be just a distant memory within a decade. ISIS is largely a Shia group, and the Sunnis (majority Muslim sect) are not fans of them. Even if ISIS successfully accomplishes their goal of conquering the Middle East, I don't see such a state lasting. But let's ask the moral question about ISIS members. What they do is wrong, but but if they stopped doing it and just went on to live normal lives, would they still be bad people? Let's say an ISIS executioner did that. Would people be able to forgive him?
I guess what I'm getting as is general morality. Even those without religious conviction should understand that they can't make final judgment about a person's character. No one has ever lived so perfectly to truly earn such a right. We all make mistakes, some of us making mistakes that are far worse. But do those who regret and want to change their life for the better deserve forgiveness? I say they do, but society disagrees in most cases. Does that make society immoral?
We often claim the moral high ground in the west, but I'm not so sure we deserve it. We offer a different kind of brutality that ISIS. It's less theatrical but it's fueled by media deception and a corrupt political system. I guess my final point is this: too often, immorality is seen only in terms of violence. Rape is immoral. Murder is immoral. War is generally immoral (not all soldiers are guilty of immorality though). These are all true, but are things like refusing to give second chances also immoral? It's more or less saying that the work an individual put in to better themselves is not good enough, no matter the sacrifice they made. Is extreme cynicism immoral? Does that not create more negativity and is that not harmful to those who are exposed to it?
Morality is tricky and fluid. While certain things remain consistent, others are constantly changing. I don't personally believe we are any more or less moral than we were in the past. The specific action if immorality changes. But on the whole, I think people are good. Deep down, we all want to help one another. I believe it was Nelson Mandela who said the love was the natural instinct; that people are taught to hate, and this means they can be taught to love again.
Up until recent months, I have been of the opinion that the majority of people are basically 'good' people.
Speaking personally, as many know, I'm an atheist. I believe you should treat people as you wish to be treated yourself, and I live my life by that. I believe it's all you need.
I've never believed in any 'being' or deity watching over me -checking what I'm doing.
I've never believed in any kind of concept of original sin - I hadn't even heard of the concept until I was probably a teenager.
If anything I believe the opposite. I believe most people are good from birth. What happens after that is down to a mix of education, parenting, environment and genes to a certain extent.
Others I know have other perspectives.
However, recent events have made me question this.
We have all been shocked at the actions of ISIS and the brutality going on in the Middle East at the moment. Then the story of 'India's daughter' - the girl brutally raped and disemboweled on a bus in Delhi - her attackers not showing a sign of remorse and that she deserved it - just for being female. This has opened up another whole world of debate about the brutality going on in India.
I still do believe children are born 'good', however I'm beginning to think that children (and adults) are far more easily led that I previously imagined.
This incident and those like it have of course been going on for centuries, and have happened in all cultures in the past, but in recent times and in western society, we have been somewhat shielded from it. Now due to the internet we see everything.
Is this just a reflection of how things really are?
No. The Bible says none of us are good -- none of us seek to do what is right. In our natural state, none of us seek God. What happened to that woman is worse than I hope any of us could see ourselves doing...but none of us are good in comparison to God. Human nature is to do what we want, and to be selfish. It's who we are. Look at what happened in Ferguson, MO. They think a kid was shot wrongly, so people loot businesses in their own town. Look at rioting that happens in any city when something happens. For crying out loud, when their favorite basketball team wins, people go out and torch cars and burn loot businesses.
Oh sure, you may not personally loot, riot, murder, kill....but none of us are good. It takes God changing us.
No. The Bible says none of us are good -- none of us seek to do what is right. In our natural state, none of us seek God. What happened to that woman is worse than I hope any of us could see ourselves doing...but none of us are good in comparison to God. Human nature is to do what we want, and to be selfish. It's who we are. Look at what happened in Ferguson, MO. They think a kid was shot wrongly, so people loot businesses in their own town. Look at rioting that happens in any city when something happens. For crying out loud, when their favorite basketball team wins, people go out and torch cars and burn loot businesses.
Oh sure, you may not personally loot, riot, murder, kill....but none of us are good. It takes God changing us.
I disagree with this perspective. Humans are flawed, no doubt about that. We do bad things all the time; sometimes it's small things like a white lie. And some things are way worse, like killing our fellow man.
However, I do not think human nature is to be selfish and cruel. That's something we're taught to do. Human nature is a complex combination of collaboration and competition. We do complete to survive when we need to. That is selfish. But we also cooperate to survive. Few, if any of us, could truly survive without any assistance from another person. Humans ultimately care about each other, and I think that makes us good.
We are flawed though. We can be impulsive and sometimes act before thinking. This makes us do bad things. But this does not mean human nature is to be bad.
And don't say 'compared to God we're not good.' Of course not. Based on the typical Christian view of God, no one is as good, but not being as good does not mean we aren't still good. You don't have to be the best to deserve credit. You can be good without being the most good.
I disagree with this perspective. Humans are flawed, no doubt about that. We do bad things all the time; sometimes it's small things like a white lie. And some things are way worse, like killing our fellow man.
However, I do not think human nature is to be selfish and cruel. That's something we're taught to do. Human nature is a complex combination of collaboration and competition. We do complete to survive when we need to. That is selfish. But we also cooperate to survive. Few, if any of us, could truly survive without any assistance from another person. Humans ultimately care about each other, and I think that makes us good.
We are flawed though. We can be impulsive and sometimes act before thinking. This makes us do bad things. But this does not mean human nature is to be bad.
And don't say 'compared to God we're not good.' Of course not. Based on the typical Christian view of God, no one is as good, but not being as good does not mean we aren't still good. You don't have to be the best to deserve credit. You can be good without being the most good.
The Bible says otherwise. I know you may not care what the Bible says...but I do.
Just take a look at the world around us. Is it getting better as people are becoming less religious? Or is America becoming more violent? Do Americans love each other more without God? Or less?
No. The Bible says none of us are good -- none of us seek to do what is right. In our natural state, none of us seek God. What happened to that woman is worse than I hope any of us could see ourselves doing...but none of us are good in comparison to God. Human nature is to do what we want, and to be selfish. It's who we are. Look at what happened in Ferguson, MO. They think a kid was shot wrongly, so people loot businesses in their own town. Look at rioting that happens in any city when something happens. For crying out loud, when their favorite basketball team wins, people go out and torch cars and burn loot businesses.
Oh sure, you may not personally loot, riot, murder, kill....but none of us are good. It takes God changing us.
My problem with this perspective (I assume you are coming from an 'original sin' stance) is that it assumes people are guilty before they have even done anything. From a psychological perspective this is a bad thing - tell people they are bad, eventually they believe it. I think this is a very bad thing in itself and should be actively discouraged. When I was learning to be a secondary school teacher, we did a course in positive reinforcement. Basically when you catch kids in the act of being good - praise it. And then play down or ignore the bad behaviour. This reinforces good behaviour. I think this can be overdone personally and needs to be handled in the right way - I believe credit should be given where credit is due rather than artificially praising every tiny little thing. Kids need to take pride when they have made real achievements. However the system does work.
I do take your point about mob behaviour. I don't understand it at all myself. It's just a crazy way to behave. To me vandalizing your own town is just punishing yourself by destroying your own environment. But bear in mind the majority of people in civilized society do not behave like that and think it just as crazy as we do.
I'm reminded of the destruction of Islamic artifacts in Iraq that happened very recently. These people believe they doing gods work by destroying false idols. Religious people do not seem to be immune from mob rule either.
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