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Old 04-08-2015, 12:30 PM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,138,641 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
Your claim would be contrary to the conclusions by the majority of theologians.
Majority? Have you taken a poll of all the theologians to determine that? Or is it contrary to the few you agree with?
Quote:

Besides, you have no originals of any of the documents, only translations of copies or copies. BTW. 20 years after is not contemporaneous.
I never claimed it was contemporaneous.
Quote:


And...which of the apostles were present at Jesus' birth?
I never said they were. But they were able to interview eyewitnesses of the events of his birth.
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Old 04-08-2015, 01:16 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,943 posts, read 6,047,053 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts. They were written by eyewitnesses within about 20 years of the crucifixion. John, actually, was written much later, but by an eyewitness. I never used the term "contemporary". I make no claim that they were written during Christ's lifetime, or within a very short time after.
The people that chose the first Bibles (Bishops) admitted they had no idea (no actual verification) of who their actual authors were, and went with the traditions that the Bishops that presented the books proclaimed or added their own interpolations of who the authors might be, omitting some books that seemed not to fit with "Universal (Catholic)" doctrine [Actually a vote by those who attended the government and privately sponsored meetings], and persecuting "heretics." There is ample evidence of voracious editing and different redactions on the part of payed scribes .

Their "eyewitness testimony" to the making of the first Christian Bibles is the only reliable source in my view, and many early Christians in high religious offices regarded the Bible-makers as anti-Christian bibliolaters and not Jesus-based but instead Letter-based, we have the counter-viewpoint's letters still available.

Development of the New Testament canon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 04-08-2015, 04:34 PM
 
7,381 posts, read 7,679,484 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Majority? Have you taken a poll of all the theologians to determine that? Or is it contrary to the few you agree with?

No, but others have.

I never claimed it was contemporaneous.

That's what I asked for and what you seem to have intended to provide.


I never said they were. But they were able to interview eyewitnesses of the events of his birth.
So, at best, its hearsay, which would explain the differing accounts.
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Old 04-08-2015, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,564 posts, read 24,034,469 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O.C. Ogilvy View Post
I am pressed to understand why you would cite 19 terrorists as an example of Islamic belief.
I cited them as examples of religious believers acting upon those beliefs, not as examples of all Islam.

And the point of course, which I cannot tell if you are deliberately failing to catch, or genuinely don't understand, is that a willingness to die for a belief does not establish the correctness of the belief. Plenty of people were willing to die for National Socialism, does that validate Nazi beliefs? Did the kamikazes prove the divinity of the Japanese Emperor?

Now do you get it? The belief must be judged by its correctness and practical merits, not by how many people are willing to die rather than renounce it.
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Old 04-08-2015, 10:06 PM
 
8,669 posts, read 4,786,636 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle View Post
when a leader lies to keep its followers it is the time to leave.

Jesus as a real person is a waste of time to fight. It doesn't matter. It makes me look stupid when I even fight a toy story. Fighting a message of love and hope as taught by the bible is absolutely absurd. Yeah, I am going to fight that one too.

"miracles' and "magic" is the fight for me. There is no reason to push those as real. And to flat out lie about them and have others take it as real in 2015 is a look into the human species. It tells us something "real". "literal bible" true or false is a silly notion. Might as well say "csi" is Historically and literally a true/false cop story.
Miracles?
Like clairvoyant denial?
Denial is a powerful delusion...that does not take shrooms.
A gift of natural perception is an oxymoron..
The carnal mind cannot see without time...
So where is consciouness?
Got psyched out...
Well I believe and can even wonder How God has performed them with every breath..
I mourn for those who do not wish to see or hear when God speaks to us all...
Guess you could say my head is well above the clouds..

I remember a miracle Jesus gave.
He took some dirt from the ground spit in it and rubbed it on a blind mans eyes and they were opened. Even his parents were blown away. I can see their faces..
Divine flesh with the Holy Spirit. Jesus the Son of God.. Repairing flesh on a molecular level. Hmm I wonder about this process.
I am way past doubt...
I want to know how Jesus did it...
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Old 04-08-2015, 11:36 PM
 
Location: Aztlan
2,686 posts, read 1,765,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
I cited them as examples of religious believers acting upon those beliefs, not as examples of all Islam.

And the point of course, which I cannot tell if you are deliberately failing to catch, or genuinely don't understand, is that a willingness to die for a belief does not establish the correctness of the belief. Plenty of people were willing to die for National Socialism, does that validate Nazi beliefs? Did the kamikazes prove the divinity of the Japanese Emperor?

Now do you get it? The belief must be judged by its correctness and practical merits, not by how many people are willing to die rather than renounce it.
The people who died for National Socialism in the early 1940's were not necessarily National Socialists, and if they were they may not have been so voluntarily. If you will recall, service in the German military then was mandatory, as was adherence to official state policy. That is quite different from religious belief, where coercion is not neccesarily present.
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Old 04-09-2015, 04:58 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
50,083 posts, read 20,587,076 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Majority? Have you taken a poll of all the theologians to determine that? Or is it contrary to the few you agree with?


I never claimed it was contemporaneous.


I never said they were. But they were able to interview eyewitnesses of the events of his birth.
Then how do you explain that Mark has no nativity, John pretty much denies that Jesus was born in Bethlehem and Luke and Matthew have different and contradictory stories? At best the 'eyewitnesses' were making their stories up. At worst (or more probable) Matthew and Luke were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
So, at best, its hearsay, which would explain the differing accounts.
Yep.
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Old 04-09-2015, 12:15 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
7,943 posts, read 6,047,053 times
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Look at what I found:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uxvH02nGCY

I found two things this guy misstated/misunderstood while going through his slide presentation, but the rest seems applicable.
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Old 04-09-2015, 12:44 PM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,138,641 times
Reputation: 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn View Post
So, at best, its hearsay, which would explain the differing accounts.
What different accounts?
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Old 04-09-2015, 12:50 PM
 
19,942 posts, read 17,138,641 times
Reputation: 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Then how do you explain that Mark has no nativity, John pretty much denies that Jesus was born in Bethlehem
Chapter and verse?
Quote:

and Luke and Matthew have different and contradictory stories?
Different perspectives, contradictory, no.
Quote:

At best the 'eyewitnesses' were making their stories up. At worst (or more probable) Matthew and Luke were.
Nonsense. The Bible is a wonderfully accurate historical document, if you are able to have an open mind about it. But an open mind has never been one of your strong suits, has it?
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