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Old 01-18-2008, 07:41 AM
 
Location: Just a few miles outside of St. Louis
1,921 posts, read 3,708,418 times
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There is an odd thing about the story of Job that has always puzzled me. If God cannot be in the presence of evil, just how is it that he and Satan were sitting around having this conversation, and then a wager about Job, in the first place? Satan is the embodiment of evil, God cannot allow evil in his presence, yet they there they are. Job 1:6 - "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them." And the last sentence of Job 1:12 says, "So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord." This seems clear that they were in the same room, so to speak. But, even if one says that this somehow all occurred on a spiritual plane, the fact remains that God and Satan are on "speaking terms". I really do find this part of the story to be quite peculiar.
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Old 01-18-2008, 07:46 AM
 
Location: South Florida
260 posts, read 1,877 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticLady1 View Post
There is an odd thing about the story of Job that has always puzzled me. If God cannot be in the presence of evil, just how is it that he and Satan were sitting around having this conversation, and then a wager about Job, in the first place? Satan is the embodiment of evil, God cannot allow evil in his presence, yet they there they are. Job 1:6 - "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them." And the last sentence of Job 1:12 says, "So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord." This seems clear that they were in the same room, so to speak. But, even if one says that this somehow all occurred on a spiritual plane, the fact remains that God and Satan are on "speaking terms". I really do find this part of the story to be quite peculiar.
That's one problem, but then again, he also employs lying and evil spirits too according to the [mid] earlier parts of the Old Testament. By later Old Testament times rolling into the new, such a concept was unthinkable, but hey, when man creates god, they can change the concepts as they themselves change.


BTW, I responded to you in the Fire in Rome thread.
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:11 AM
 
7,767 posts, read 9,133,307 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwentyFourSeven View Post
Why do you think God need to prove anything to Satan?
The Bible isn't for Satan and God.

God didn't need to prove anything to Satan. God needed to 'prove' or show US something.

The Bible is for us. This story is available to us because there is an application to our lives.

Love it or hate it, that's your call.

The Bible wasn't written so that we could figure out all the aspects of God and make sure He fits into human logic. It was written to show us the way to Him.

Job's part of that message. Part of the way we deal with human tragedy and loss and it also shows us that, yes, some things God does we don't fully comprehend.

But IF He's God, then He is God.

If you reject Him as God, you've solved all your problems with Job. Do I fully understand the how's why's and what's of everything in the Bible? Nope.

Do I trust God all the same? Absolutely

And I will reiterate my point from earlier, I'm sure, in retrospect, Job would go through the exact same thing all over again.

Ask kaykay and a few others here, they are modern examples of Job. And I respect them and look up to them for their faith in the face of obstacles.

Much more so than I do someone who would hit a bump in the road and turn their back on God.

The faithful under duress are blessed with a faith that I can only hope to achieve. On that I am quite sure.
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:08 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,532 posts, read 9,949,245 times
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Originally Posted by Ringwielder
Quote:
When we read the Bible, we are reading about, supposedly, Gods RULES for life here on earth, His rules which will get humans a passage to heaven. So we can interpret it to mean whatever we THINK the artist, God meant it to mean? And that will be OK?
To me philosophy (and thus also religion) is like a poem.
A poem is the poet's interpretation of (his) reality, you either get it or not.
I believe that you view the Bible as an instruction manual, while I only view it as a work of art or a philosophy book.
An instruction manual can only be interpreted the way the writer intended it, otherwise it would make no sense.
While a work of art can be multi-interpretable.
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:17 AM
 
479 posts, read 717,482 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwentyFourSeven View Post
Anyone else find a huge, disturbing problem with that story?

You can look at the story from many different angles. Some portray the story of Job as metaphorical prelude to the coming Messiah, particularly since at the end of the story Job was the one who had to make the sacrafice in for his friends in order for them to receive forgiveness. Ultimately the story proves that God is in control of all things whether they be deemed "good" or "evil."

Job was declared righteous in the end because he realized that God's righteousnous, wisdom, and discernment far surpassed his own. I also think(my personal opinion) that Job was allowed to go through some of these trials so he could enter the kingdom. Had he not experienced some of God's wrath, I don't think he'd be able to fully appreciate the fullness of God's love and redemption through Christ Jesus.
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Just a few miles outside of St. Louis
1,921 posts, read 3,708,418 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
Ask kaykay and a few others here, they are modern examples of Job. And I respect them and look up to them for their faith in the face of obstacles.

Much more so than I do someone who would hit a bump in the road and turn their back on God.
I know many people myself, that I greatly admire for their strong faith, under horrible conditions. They are true to their convictions, and to their Creator, and that is truly a wonderous thing. However, I believe that we must be careful not to place people, who have lost their faith, into some sort of "box" of unworthiness. I'm not saying that you do that, Alpha, and I certainly mean no offense but I am trying to make a point. We, all of us, have to be careful lest we find ourselves judging peoples' faith, or lack thereof, based on what we see on the outside. Some people do lose their faith over what appears a "bump in the road", and some lose it over things that are very obviously horrible, but we don't always know the story. What may bring one person to their knees in prayer, may bring another to their's, in utter despondency. Those bumps in the road may not seem important to us; indeed they may look extremely trivial, but they are probably quite important to the person involved. And, when it comes to obviously horrible things in someone's life, and if it cause them to lose their faith, I think we have to be especially careful, not to treat them as though there is something wrong with them. Some people just don't have, and may never have, "so great a faith".

Last edited by CelticLady1; 01-18-2008 at 09:40 AM..
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:57 AM
 
7,767 posts, read 9,133,307 times
Reputation: 3383
Quote:
Originally Posted by CelticLady1 View Post
I know many people myself, that I greatly admire for their strong faith, under horrible conditions. They are true to their convictions, and to their Creator, and that is truly a wonderous thing. However, I believe that we must be careful not to place people, who have lost their faith, into some sort of "box" of unworthiness. I'm not saying that you do that, Alpha, and I certainly mean no offense but I am trying to make a point. We, all of us, have to be careful lest we find ourselves judging peoples' faith, or lack thereof, based on what we see on the outside. Some people do lose their faith over what appears a "bump in the road", and some lose it over things that are very obviously horrible, but we don't always know the story. What may bring one person to their knees in prayer, may bring another to their's, in utter despondency. Those bumps in the road may not seem important to us; indeed they may look extremely trivial, but they are probably quite important to the person involved.
No I don't think I'm elevating or lowering anyone based on their life experiences and I'm certianly not saying someone's faith is better than someone else's.

What I am trying to say is that there are modern day Job's who have their faith strenthened by obstacles and tragedies just like there are professing believers who toss their faith when it get too tough.

There's a saying that comes to mind but I can't quite remember it...something about an 'untested faith'.

Anyway, I agree with you CelticLady1.
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:18 AM
 
Location: USA
4,983 posts, read 4,848,589 times
Reputation: 2506
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
The Bible isn't for Satan and God.

God didn't need to prove anything to Satan. God needed to 'prove' or show US something.

The Bible is for us. This story is available to us because there is an application to our lives.

Love it or hate it, that's your call.

The Bible wasn't written so that we could figure out all the aspects of God and make sure He fits into human logic. It was written to show us the way to Him.

Job's part of that message. Part of the way we deal with human tragedy and loss and it also shows us that, yes, some things God does we don't fully comprehend.

But IF He's God, then He is God.

If you reject Him as God, you've solved all your problems with Job. Do I fully understand the how's why's and what's of everything in the Bible? Nope.

Do I trust God all the same? Absolutely

And I will reiterate my point from earlier, I'm sure, in retrospect, Job would go through the exact same thing all over again.

Ask kaykay and a few others here, they are modern examples of Job. And I respect them and look up to them for their faith in the face of obstacles.

Much more so than I do someone who would hit a bump in the road and turn their back on God.

The faithful under duress are blessed with a faith that I can only hope to achieve. On that I am quite sure.

Why should anyone feel any loyalty to someone who

1-Won't show themselve or even communicate one word?
2-Allows you to suffer, when they could simply stop it?

Why is suffering so admirable, when the person has no choice but to suffer?
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:26 AM
 
7,767 posts, read 9,133,307 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulous1 View Post
Why should anyone feel any loyalty to someone who

1-Won't show themselve or even communicate one word?
You shouldn't. Thank God He does communicate with us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulous1 View Post
2-Allows you to suffer, when they could simply stop it?
You shouldn't. Thank God that we truly don't know what suffering is. I think what we can experience as suffering and what truly is suffering are two totally different things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nebulous1 View Post
Why is suffering so admirable, when the person has no choice but to suffer?
The admiration comes from the spirit and attitude of the person going through the suffering, not the suffering itself.
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:42 AM
 
Location: USA
4,983 posts, read 4,848,589 times
Reputation: 2506
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207 View Post
You shouldn't. Thank God He does communicate with us.
He does? I haven't heard any voices yet.......


You shouldn't. Thank God that we truly don't know what suffering is. I think what we can experience as suffering and what truly is suffering are two totally different things.

I do know what suffering is. I don't think anyone can tell someone else they haven't suffered. I can bet you wouldnt want to trade places with me.


The admiration comes from the spirit and attitude of the person going through the suffering, not the suffering itself.
What is admirable about it, if they have no choice?
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