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Old 05-03-2015, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Crusoe View Post
I know it sounds a bit confusing. I felt the same when I first learned about it. Apparently not all Christians are aware of the Judaic connection of the Bible and familiar with Tanach.
Most of what we now know as the "Bible" has been edited and revised so much throughout history the original meaning is gone.
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Old 05-04-2015, 07:32 AM
 
Location: US
27,970 posts, read 15,053,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Again some excellent analysis. Too soon to rep you, but .

We Christians might not be as wrong as we frequently are if we understood OT scripture the way Jesus did---as a Jew. And much "traditional" Christian theology was affected in the early church years by Greek philosophers.

If I understand traditional JEWISH beliefs there was no separation between body and soul. Jews saw unity in a person. Also, Satan, as a separate evil Being did not exist, but was viewed as a kind of spiritual Adversary rather than as a being.

Some of it is a bit difficult for me to grasp and I'm not as hung up as many Christians regarding later developed doctrines that appealed to Romans and helped spread the religion.

I would certainly welcome any enlightenment you may have even though you are most probably going to "hell," (another expanded doctrine by Christians) because you don't believe in the VIRGIN birth!!
Hell is only 12 months .ax then on to Olam HaBa...
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Old 05-04-2015, 07:34 AM
 
Location: US
27,970 posts, read 15,053,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Again some excellent analysis. Too soon to rep you, but .

We Christians might not be as wrong as we frequently are if we understood OT scripture the way Jesus did---as a Jew. And much "traditional" Christian theology was affected in the early church years by Greek philosophers.

If I understand traditional JEWISH beliefs there was no separation between body and soul. Jews saw unity in a person. Also, Satan, as a separate evil Being did not exist, but was viewed as a kind of spiritual Adversary rather than as a being.

Some of it is a bit difficult for me to grasp and I'm not as hung up as many Christians regarding later developed doctrines that appealed to Romans and helped spread the religion.

I would certainly welcome any enlightenment you may have even though you are most probably going to "hell," (another expanded doctrine by Christians) because you don't believe in the VIRGIN birth!!
As far as the Virgin Birth, the truth is right there in black and white...
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Old 05-05-2015, 03:19 AM
 
Location: US
27,970 posts, read 15,053,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
If I understand traditional JEWISH beliefs there was no separation between body and soul. Jews saw unity in a person.
Well, even in the Christian OT, if you look at the story of Adam, it states that G-d breathed into his nostrils and Adam became a living soul (nafesh)...So, if he is a living soul now, what was he before G-d breathed life into his nostrils?...

I think either soul has to do with the body or it may regard the mind, which is the individual identity of the person...But, that is just a thought...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Also, Satan, as a separate evil Being did not exist, but was viewed as a kind of spiritual Adversary rather than as a being.
I encourage you to look through the Hebrew TaNaKh and find every instance of Satan in the Hebrew language and who and what it is applied to...You may be surprised...

Same for Moshiach...It appears this word was translated into English as Messiah only when it was applied to Yeshua, otherwise it was translated into English as Anointed or Anointed One...
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Old 05-05-2015, 07:28 AM
 
Location: An Island with a View
758 posts, read 807,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
My point in providing all of this is to ask are you willing to change your thinking if necessary, if you see that what you have been taught wasn't exactly accurate?...Or will you stick your fingers in your ears and scream la, la, la?
First of all, I'd like to thank for your enthusiastic response and many useful tools. They will no doubt come in handy for my long term study.

It is a valid question. One that I am unable to answer at the moment as I've just started on this path, and there is still much to learn, far too much indeed. I simply can't predict what is to be found at the end of this truth seeking journey, or what is ahead waiting for me. The more I know, the more I know that I only know very little.

This will be a very long and slow study I'm afraid. Perhaps a deep soul searching will be necessary at the end in order to reconcile some of the prominent differences. By then, I will pray for divine guidance and wisdom to help decide what resolution should I adopt. However, regardless of the end result, it won't diminish my faith one bit, but rather it will provide me a whole new perspective on spiritual teaching, etc. I believe my urge to seek the truth is somehow inspired by God. I have no doubt He will keep me on the right path.
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Old 05-05-2015, 07:51 AM
 
Location: An Island with a View
758 posts, read 807,349 times
Reputation: 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyMack View Post
Most of what we now know as the "Bible" has been edited and revised so much throughout history the original meaning is gone.
I believe the original meaning is still there, but it is obscured somewhat by so many layers of good intentions imposed by the early Christians who were eager to add their own interpretations and understanding of God's words in the scriptures by means of insertions and omissions, etc.

Translation alone has created much trouble to obtain a solid understanding. It requires quite an undertaking to just clear things up and try to understand the actual context, which is what I am trying to do. However, I wouldn't whole it against those who did the revision for any "discrepancy". I truly believe they had done so with good intention and good heart. It is up to us to figure things out and get the essence of God's words.

Don't despair. You can still find the original meaning in the Bible if you desire so. You just need to work hard to get there. There is so much to learn. It will take more than a life time for some.
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Old 05-05-2015, 05:29 PM
 
Location: US
27,970 posts, read 15,053,894 times
Reputation: 1747
Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Crusoe View Post
First of all, I'd like to thank for your enthusiastic response and many useful tools. They will no doubt come in handy for my long term study.

It is a valid question. One that I am unable to answer at the moment as I've just started on this path, and there is still much to learn, far too much indeed. I simply can't predict what is to be found at the end of this truth seeking journey, or what is ahead waiting for me. The more I know, the more I know that I only know very little.

This will be a very long and slow study I'm afraid. Perhaps a deep soul searching will be necessary at the end in order to reconcile some of the prominent differences. By then, I will pray for divine guidance and wisdom to help decide what resolution should I adopt. However, regardless of the end result, it won't diminish my faith one bit, but rather it will provide me a whole new perspective on spiritual teaching, etc. I believe my urge to seek the truth is somehow inspired by God. I have no doubt He will keep me on the right path.
As He has me...Baruch HaShem Lecha!...
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Old 05-05-2015, 05:33 PM
 
Location: US
27,970 posts, read 15,053,894 times
Reputation: 1747
Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Crusoe View Post
I believe the original meaning is still there, but it is obscured somewhat by so many layers of good intentions imposed by the early Christians who were eager to add their own interpretations and understanding of God's words in the scriptures by means of insertions and omissions, etc.

Translation alone has created much trouble to obtain a solid understanding. It requires quite an undertaking to just clear things up and try to understand the actual context, which is what I am trying to do. However, I wouldn't whole it against those who did the revision for any "discrepancy". I truly believe they had done so with good intention and good heart. It is up to us to figure things out and get the essence of God's words.

Don't despair. You can still find the original meaning in the Bible if you desire so. You just need to work hard to get there. There is so much to learn. It will take more than a life time for some.
Sometimes you have to tear down the house to it's foundation and rebuild...Square one?...
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Old 05-05-2015, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,286 posts, read 5,494,131 times
Reputation: 4047
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post


I encourage you to look through the Hebrew TaNaKh and find every instance of Satan in the Hebrew language and who and what it is applied to...You may be surprised...

Same for Moshiach...It appears this word was translated into English as Messiah only when it was applied to Yeshua, otherwise it was translated into English as Anointed or Anointed One...
I got the following from JewishAnswers.org but am unable to provide the link on my IPad. The Jewish view appears not only different in substance from our Christian view but different in emphasis. Or maybe this guy is wrong?

Besides the shear pre-occupation with Satan, we find another very major, fundamental difference between the Jewish understanding of Satan and the Christian understanding of him.

In Christianity, Satan is an enemy of G-d, an opposing force, and something very bad. In Christianity, Satan has a level of power that is considered almost equal to that of G-d. In the Christian bible (2 Corinthians 4:3-4), Satan is called the god of this world. However, in Judaism Satan is an agent of G-d, created by G-d for a specific purpose, and something very good. Satan is simply an agent of G-d, just as all the other angels are simply agents of G-d. This is why we frequently see passages where the author appears to interchange G-d and an angel (leading to the often erroneous Christian concept of a christophony).

If we take a look at Isaiah 45:7, we see that Hashem is the creator of everything, as the text says, “bringing forth light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil, I am G-d who does all these things.” In the Jewish bible, everything is under the jurisdiction of G-d and under His power – all forces, even evil forces. Everything comes from G-d, He created everything, good and evil. That being the case, Satan is not a rival of G-d, he is a messenger of G-d and unable to do anything outside of G-d’s will.

In contrast to Christian literature, where Satan is understood to be an evil force, the enemy of G-d, in Jewish literature, he is seen as a blessing to the Jewish people. Why? Let’s consider for a moment what Satan means. As mentioned before, the word not only means an adversary, but a stumbling block or an obstacle. What exactly is an obstacle? It is something which is put in our path requiring us to overcome it. Obstacles in this life give us opportunities to stretch our muscles and to grow.

Let’s take a look at what Judaism has to say about Satan. In the Genesis account of creation, we are told that G-d saw that each day was good, but on the last day it says that G-d saw that everything was VERY good. The Talmud teaches that this refers to the Evil inclination, which it equates with the Satan. Why is this good? It is the Evil inclination that provides our passions and desires, it is the evil inclination which is responsible for not only all the evil that transpires in this world, but also for all the good. For if we did not have passions, appetites and desires, we would also have no motivation and we would accomplish very little, either good or bad in this life.

If you look at the use of Satan in the Hebrew bible, you find that as a concept, it is much more about an experience than a person, an experience where G-d has put a roadblock in front of us. This is Satan, this is an adversary. So why is this a good thing? Because if we were to go through life without ever experiencing these roadblocks or adversaries, obstacles in life, there would be no potential for virtue in the world. For if we were never tempted to do the things that we are not supposed to do, then not doing them would be of no value to us. It is only in coming up against a desire to do what is wrong and overcoming this that we grow as spiritual people.

This evil inclination, or Satan, provides friction. Can you imagine a world with no friction, no resistance? Think about a car, how does it go? It is the friction between the tires and the road that allow the car to make progress, to go forward. Now, to the tires the friction is not necessarily a positive thing, the friction slowly destroys the tire, and yet without the friction, the tire is worthless.

If there is no resistance to overcome, we have no environment for growth. When we come up against an obstacle, either we crash into it and fall (definitely a negative experience – the evil inclination) or you have to climb over it, and by climbing over these obstacles in life, we develop our spiritual muscles, so to speak. If we never exercise our muscles, we atrophy. So these forces in the world, these experiences, no matter how difficult or uncomfortable, are positive and important.

To reiterate, in the Jewish bible, everything was created by G-d, both good and evil and everything is under G-d’s control. Only one force, not two, whereas, in Christianity Satan is not under the control of G-d but is rather, a competing force against G-d. Christian theology makes Satan so powerful that he is given the title, “the god of this world.”

This sets up a situation in Christian theology whereby Jesus must come and accomplish something to help us get out of the difficult situation – to overcome Satan, since he is at war not only with G-d, but with us. However, Judaism teaches that what is to be overcome is not Satan, but the “satan” in our path, the obstacle which has been put there for our growth.

So, to reiterate, in Judaism Satan is an agent of G-d, who provides opportunities for us to grow, to respond to our passions and desires by producing things of value in this world and to become stronger spiritual people.

Penina Taylor
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Old 05-05-2015, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
9,286 posts, read 5,494,131 times
Reputation: 4047
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
Well, even in the Christian OT, if you look at the story of Adam, it states that G-d breathed into his nostrils and Adam became a living soul (nafesh)...So, if he is a living soul now, what was he before G-d breathed life into his nostrils?...

I think either soul has to do with the body or it may regard the mind, which is the individual identity of the person...But, that is just a thought....
From the website MyJewishLearning (and incidentally I am not pretending to be an expert or even a decent novice on Jewish views---my son is a gentle working for an Israeli security firm and has shared some of these views):

The Bible gives few clues to the ancient Israelite idea of the soul or spirit. Three words which over time developed the meaning of “soul” are present in Tanakh: Neshamah, Nefesh, and Ruah. Tracing the evolution of these terms gives us some idea of the ancient Israelites’ beliefs regarding the soul.

In the Creation story, we read of God blowing a “breath of life” into the man of earth and dust (Genesis 2:7). The word used is a form of the Hebrew root indicating breath. Although this “neshamah” later becomes associated with the soul, the word here only describes the element that animates a body. This animating element is not, in early biblical tradition, separate from the body in life, nor does it possess any personality.

Similarly, ruah is the animating force from God. Most often used as “wind,” ruahmay also be used as “breath.” “God said, ‘My breath [ruhi] will not govern man forever, since he is flesh…'” (Genesis 6:3). Here, we see the added element of transience: The ruah ends its association with the mortal body at death.

The word nefesh is often used to mean “person” or “living being”. In the Torah, however, animals may also possess this life force–a “nefesh behemah.” The term nefesh is particularly associated with blood, as in “the life [nefesh] of the flesh is in the blood” (Leviticus 17:11).

Nefesh does reflect a personal dimension. It may be used in the sense of “self” (including “himself”). Nefesh is also associated with personal desire or attraction. One’s nefesh may cleave to someone (as in the case of Shehem’s yearning for Dinah, Jacob’s daughter), or to evil (see Proverbs 21:10). In a later example of this usage, a person of considerable appetite is called “ba’al [possessor of] nefesh” (Proverbs 23:2). In all of these usages, the nefesh is connected to the body and its material wants.
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