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What you seem to be saying is that our reality is "alive" (or proto-alive) on some level that manifests as quantum activity . . . or as string theory and I refer to it . . . vibrational events of "something." I consider it the consciousness field of God . . . you may prefer the unified field. We now know it extends energetically beyond the Higgs field since we found the "event" identified as the Higgs boson. We can keep smashing the watch against the wall at higher and higher "speeds" and identify more "particles" (energy events) until we realize there are no "particles" . . . just a perfect fluid of "something" I call a consciousness field . . . i.e. God.
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Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense
Conscious thought is the result of electrical impulses in our brains. Thoughts are the product of electrical signals in the brain based on positive or negative charges. It's a binary system of either or, exactly like a computer's binary system of 0 and 1. Positive and negative charges and the attraction/repulsion process which occurs as a result is the basis of quantum mechanics. Thoughts which are put into physical action are then the product of quantum mechanics as well. Because the muscles in a living creature's body operate as a result of positive or negative signals from the brain. Life is simply one consequence of quantum mechanics in action. Whether quantum mechanics is itself an attribute of cosmic string vibration is still an open question. For you to suggest or declare that energy itself is a "conscious field" derived from God is to do what believers have always done. Imagine that something must be true, and then declare it to be so. But human imagination is one of the products of the human brain in action. Thoughts in the human brain can sometimes correspond to actual physical phenomena. But not usually. Most of human thoughts are simply random ideas which do not correspond to any physical reality whatsoever. We refer to such thoughts and ideas as "nonsense," or "make believe."
At the risk of being chided by Cruithne for hubris by suggesting that you need to think more deeply about this "imagination" issue . . . I still think you need to think more deeply about this imagination issue. You must realize that absolutely EVERYTHING that manifests within our reality is some form of "whatever" it is that comprises our reality. If you limit your considerations to those things that manifest and interact physically in our material reality . . . you are limiting your conceptions and understanding, IMO. That our consciousness HAS this ability to imagine is a wonder, for sure. What exactly this imagination IS should be even more wondrous and evocative of further speculation about the true essence of reality itself. Clearly you do not think so and probably consider it some illusion or irrelevant by-product of thought that can be ignored as not REAL. I on the other hand, consider it a very real part of our reality that needs considerable introspection and serious thought.
Conscious thought is the result of electrical impulses in our brains. Thoughts are the product of electrical signals in the brain based on positive or negative charges. It's a binary system of either or, exactly like a computer's binary system of 0 and 1. Positive and negative charges and the attraction/repulsion process which occurs as a result is the basis of quantum mechanics. Thoughts which are put into physical action are therefore a product of quantum mechanics as well. Because the muscles in a living creature's body operate as a result of positive or negative signals from the brain. Life is simply one consequence of quantum mechanics in action. Whether quantum mechanics is itself an attribute of cosmic string vibration is still an open question. For you to suggest or declare that energy itself is a "conscious field" derived from God is to do what believers have always done. Imagine that something must be true, and then declare it to be so. Such as declaring that the universe can not simply "just exist," so it must necessarily therefore be the creation of a Being who simply "just exists." But human imagination is one of the products of the human brain in action. Thoughts in the human brain can sometimes correspond to actual physical phenomena. But not necessarily. Most of human thoughts are simply random ideas which do not correspond to any physical reality whatsoever. We refer to such thoughts and ideas as "nonsense," or "make believe."
I lost you at it has to be binary. That statement shows what you don't know. So go check it out. Then come back with it reworded.
I still think you need to think more deeply about this imagination issue.
And I think that you need to think more deeply about the difference between what we can imagine in our minds and the things that we can know through physical reality. Not that there can't be crossover. Relativity was purely an imaginary construct until such time as physical evidence began to accrue to confirm it. String theory is in that position today. I am not suggesting that either relativity or string theory are dependent on humans to establish their validity if they have physical validity. Physical things are either true or they are not. I am suggesting that imagining an end game and then declaring "game over," is neither scientific or useful in the long term search for knowledge.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
You must realize that absolutely EVERYTHING that manifests within our reality is some form of "whatever" it is that comprises our reality. If you limit your considerations to those things that manifest and interact physically in our material reality . . . you are limiting your conceptions and understanding, IMO.
Understanding this "whatever it is," is why science exists. Because physical things can be examined and understood. Science has reduced the process of understanding the universe down to understanding the mechanics of how quanta interact with each other. Because quantum mechanics can be seen as the underlying cause for everything that occurs. Beyond that lie certain human derived concepts which exist entirely in the mind, because they have no actual physical reality. Except of course that such concepts, opinions, serve to dictate how humans communicate and interact with each other. Human opinions and abstract conclusions can certainly be put into physical action, but these things are meaningless to the physical universe. Conflict and violence for example, have meaning in the scope of human affairs, but they are meaningless to the physical universe. They are simply events which either occur or they do not. All events can all be attributed to quantum mechanics in action.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
That our consciousness HAS this ability to imagine is a wonder, for sure. What exactly this imagination IS should be even more wondrous and evocative of further speculation about the true essence of reality itself.
As long as speculation is understood when considering an idea or a problem, then I agree entirely. However when speculation is transformed into a dogmatic conclusion based on nothing more than pure imagination in action, then we are not only faced with the possible dangers that acting on false assumptions provides, we have stopped looking for the correct answer.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Clearly you do not think so and probably consider it some illusion or irrelevant by-product of thought that can be ignored as not REAL. I on the other hand, consider it a very real part of our reality that needs considerable introspection and serious thought.
Real things should never be ignored. Imaginary things deserve to be ignored unless or until they can be shown to have some physical reality. It is certainly possible for individuals to react physically to imaginary things. Dying from fear over imaginary things is a very real occurrence for example. For my own part, I consider such things as ghosts, devils, demons and the like to be purely an imaginary and irrelevant byproduct of thought, and I give them no consideration at all. Not coincidentally I believe, I am never plagued by such things.
Please do not forget to respond to my earlier post. As a professed Christian does this more or less accurately represent your view on reality, yes or no? And if not, why not?
Tired of the Nonsense wrote:
Now, please correct me if I am wrong. According to your "view" the universe is NOT naturally occurring at all. Since the universe can not simply "just exist," it must be the creation of a Being who simply "just exists." This Being must therefore be omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. God, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God, created all creatures, including Adam and Eve, and the serpent, with His own hand. And He brought them all together in a garden with full foreknowledge of what would occur. Then one day while God was walking in another part of the garden, Adam, Eve and the serpent conspired to FAIL HIM by lying (the serpent) and by eating of the forbidden fruit (Adam and Eve). When God "discovered" this failure of His creations to abide by his orders God condemned both sides AND THEIR PROGENY IN PERPETUITY and cast them out of the garden. But God eventually relented in his banishment of humankind from his good graces for doing precisely as He intended that they would do and for being exactly as He intended them to be when He created them, and He eventually offered humankind a chance at redemption. A redemption that could only be satisfied through a blood sacrifice. Something much greater then an animal blood sacrifice was needed however. His OWN blood needed to be sacrificed. WHY? GOD'S GAME... GOD'S RULES! So God put into motion a plan by which He came to earth as a human being in order to die in agony and thereby sacrifice His own Holy Blood and in doing so wash away the sin of the offence that was all part of His plan from before the creation of the universe. So Jesus died, but then his corpse came back to life and subsequently flew away, off up into the clouds. Thereby offering humankind the chance at redemption. But this redemption is only to be for those who believe on faith that all of this is actually what occurred, and that a man who was in reality his own father has been about to return soon for the last 2,000 years. If I have gotten any of this wrong, please explain how and why.
My "view" is based on the best current observation and factual evidence. Your "view" is based on the ancient assumed existence of an invisible Being who dwells in an invisible realm combined with some few stories that contain claims which by any rational definition defy all reason, logic, observation and common experience. Which of these views an individual chooses to believe seems to divide largely along the lines of those who are invested with a great deal of personal emotional need, not to mention much childhood indoctrination, as opposed to those who have a desire to understand what is actually true through examination of the best evidence at hand.
Last edited by Tired of the Nonsense; 05-05-2015 at 04:28 PM..
At the risk of being chided by Cruithne for hubris by suggesting that you need to think more deeply about this "imagination" issue . . . I still think you need to think more deeply about this imagination issue. You must realize that absolutely EVERYTHING that manifests within our reality is some form of "whatever" it is that comprises our reality. If you limit your considerations to those things that manifest and interact physically in our material reality . . . you are limiting your conceptions and understanding, IMO. That our consciousness HAS this ability to imagine is a wonder, for sure. What exactly this imagination IS should be even more wondrous and evocative of further speculation about the true essence of reality itself. Clearly you do not think so and probably consider it some illusion or irrelevant by-product of thought that can be ignored as not REAL. I on the other hand, consider it a very real part of our reality that needs considerable introspection and serious thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tired of the Nonsense
And I think that you need to think more deeply about the difference between what we can imagine in our minds and the things that we can know through physical reality. Not that there can't be crossover. Relativity was purely an imaginary construct until such time as physical evidence began to accrue to confirm it. String theory is in that position today. I am not suggesting that either relativity or string theory are dependent on humans to establish their validity if they have physical validity. Physical things are either true or they are not. I am suggesting that imagining an end game and then declaring "game over," is neither scientific or useful in the long term search for knowledge.
Crossover??? Can you tell me what you KNOW in your consciousness that is NOT of the same character and essence as imagination????Is it REAL? Of what is this REAL knowledge physically composed???? You need have no fear of my imagining an end game and not considering any further options. My life has consisted of nothing but since my experience in deep meditation.
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Understanding this "whatever it is," is why science exists. Because physical things can be examined and understood. Science has reduced the process of understanding the universe down to understanding the mechanics of how quanta interact with each other. Because quantum mechanics can be seen as the underlying cause for everything that occurs. Beyond that lie certain human derived concepts which exist entirely in the mind, because they have no actual physical reality. Except of course that such concepts, opinions, serve to dictate how humans communicate and interact with each other. Human opinions and abstract conclusions can certainly be put into physical action, but these things are meaningless to the physical universe. Conflict and violence for example, have meaning in the scope of human affairs, but they are meaningless to the physical universe. They are simply events which either occur or they do not. All events can all be attributed to quantum mechanics in action.
There s NOTHING that manifests within reality (in whatever form) that can be considered to have no physical reality. Your equation of reality with the capabilities of human measurement is limiting and fallacious. Is melody REAL??? Or is there only a physical sequence of notes that in no way incorporates the phenomenon of melody? I can see that you have thought deeply about these issues but have unnecessarily restricted your thinking to the physical materiality we can measure. You have left the phenomenon by which you do this thinking in the penumbra of your considerations. You treat it as something "given in the inner consciousness" that does not need to be considered phenomenologically as some actual form of "whatever."
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As long as speculation is understood when considering an idea or a problem, then I agree entirely. However when speculation is transformed into a dogmatic conclusion based on nothing more than pure imagination in action, then we are not only faced with the possible dangers that acting on false assumptions provides, we have stopped looking for the correct answer.
As I said . . . have no fear that I will ever leave any possibilities unexplored. Anything I currently accept that comes into violation of anything we learn through science will be changed by me.
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Real things should never be ignored. Imaginary things deserve to be ignored unless or until they can be shown to have some physical reality. It is certainly possible for individuals to react physically to imaginary things. Dying from fear over imaginary things is a very real occurrence for example. For my own part, I consider such things as ghosts, devils, demons and the like to be purely an imaginary and irrelevant byproduct of thought, and I give them no consideration at all. Not coincidentally I believe, I am never plagued by such things.
Establishing exactly what imaginary IS seems to be taken for granted by you as somehow a given or easily discerned . . . despite the fact that you have not adequately established exactly what real knowledge itself IS in phenomenological terms. You equate it with our measurement capabilities . . . which as I say is very limited and fallacious.
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Please do not forget to respond to my earlier post. As a professed Christian does this more or less accurately represent your view on reality, yes or no? And if not, why not?
I will do so in another post. Provisionally, I can tell you it does NOT reflect my views accurately.
What have we come to? Of the last ten posts or so, the only poster who was on topic was...............Vizio.
Discussion is a fluid thing. Pretending it is some monolithic regimented interaction is just silly. Questions are raised and answered. It is the way things are. Get over it.
Crossover??? Can you tell me what you KNOW in your consciousness that is NOT of the same character and essence as imagination????Is it REAL? Of what is this REAL knowledge physically composed???? You need have no fear of my imagining an end game and not considering any further options. My life has consisted of nothing but since my experience in deep meditation.
I know because my consciousness is limited by physical reality. I cannot by conscious thought alone take a physical tour of the physical universe, for example. I can do it in my imagination of course, but there is virtually no hope that my imagination can match the scope of what is actually physically out there. It's not that I don't enjoy indulging myself in a bit of make believe from time to time. It's just that I make an effort to recognize the difference between what is physically real, and what is mental imagery.
Last night I dreamed that I was cycling down a residential street when I noticed two tigers lounging on a porch. They seemed to be minding their own business, so I decided to do the same and ignore them by cycling on past. When they saw me however they took notice and immediately began to chase me. I have no memory of exactly how this situation turned out. This morning I awoke back in the real world in my own bed exactly where I had left me the night before, still completely and entirely uneaten. Had I been covered in claw and fang marks, I might well now have some real reason to reconsider the difference between imagination and reality. Fortunately for me, reality and my subconscious imaginings are two entirely different states. This is a situation that I have noticed to be true without exception throughout my entire life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
There s NOTHING that manifests within reality (in whatever form) that can be considered to have no physical reality. Your equation of reality with the capabilities of human measurement is limiting and fallacious. Is melody REAL??? Or is there only a physical sequence of notes that in no way incorporates the phenomenon of melody?
Melody is simply a sequence of vibrations in the air. That is certainly real enough, because it is quantifiable. Whether a certain melody is found to be pleasing or unpleasant is NOT quantifiable. That is entirely a subjective opinion held by the listener. Many people find rap music to be pleasing. I do not. There is no right or wrong answer to this difference of opinion however, because air vibrations are simply air vibrations. There is no right or wrong, only subjective opinion. The universe itself makes no judgement on such questions at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I can see that you have thought deeply about these issues but have unnecessarily restricted your thinking to the physical materiality we can measure. You have left the phenomenon by which you do this thinking in the penumbra of your considerations. You treat it as something "given in the inner consciousness" that does not need to be considered phenomenologically as some actual form of "whatever."
I am not inclined to give much credibility to abstract philosophy, this is true. We have reached a point in human technological and intellectual development where it is possible to know certain facts about the physical world to a very high level of reliability. Abstract philosophy has ceased to be the useful tool in the pursuit of knowledge that it once was when served as the only apparent avenue of investigation into the great mysteries. Now we actually KNOW physical answers to physical questions. To my mind the process of making stuff up and then contriving to believe it serves no purpose at all. Outside of, I suppose, a certain emotional satisfaction that some people seem to find in their make believe. I don't happen to find any emotional satisfaction in make believe. I do find making an attempt to understand the physical universe for what it has to say satisfying however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Establishing exactly what imaginary IS seems to be taken for granted by you as somehow a given or easily discerned . . . despite the fact that you have not adequately established exactly what real knowledge itself IS in phenomenological terms. You equate it with our measurement capabilities . . . which as I say is very limited and fallacious.
Deciding that the universe could not possibly "just exist," and then declaring that the universe must therefore be the product of an invisible all powerful creator who simply "just exists," certainly qualifies as something that has all the necessary qualifications to be pure imagination at work. Not only is it self contradictory and therefore illogical, such an explanation is also contradicted by the physical universe at hand, which has been indicating to us quite clearly that it exists and functions for purely natural reasons.
What have we come to? Of the last ten posts or so, the only poster who was on topic was...............Vizio.
The question was; "Why do you think this forum is popular?" Providing an active demonstration is exactly on topic.
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