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Well you just confirmed what I said. "Proper belief" = correct belief elevated over actual right action.
Right action is meaningless until you "believe properly", THEN it becomes the evidence of the proper belief.
I understand your concocted "heart belief" is necessary because actual belief -- what you call "head-only" -- would have to be based on facts and evidence. Actual belief is an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists. This requires the use of one's mind:
P is true
S believes that P is true, and therefore
S is justified in believing that P is true
The existence of god is an unfalsifiable proposition, not a provable hypothesis. Therefore it cannot be demonstrated to be true, and we are not justified in believing in god in the sense of true belief as outlined above.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to imply that the church teaches, just say the right words and you're in. That is simply not true, and you know it.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to imply that the church teaches, just say the right words and you're in. That is simply not true, and you know it.
OK. I'll correct you, as you're wrong. I said or implied no such thing. All I said is that right belief is so much more important than right action, that right action only "counts" if founded on right belief.
I would not assert that evangelicals, by and large, have no concern with good works; it's just that the utility of the good works is not so much to do actual good in the world as to prove that someone has "heart belief". However, the fly in that particular ointment is that since people who don't claim this special belief of yours also do good works, and meanwhile, at times, evangelicals do evil things. Therefore works can be evidence of exactly nothing.
Indeed ... I did many good works while an evangelical, taught VBS, ran the printing press, edited a newsletter, played the organ, was first to pitch in with church initiatives, etc., yet I have had more than one evangelical claim that I couldn't have ever really been one of you, my salvation experience way back in '63 was not genuine, etc. So much for good works as proof of heart belief.
It's because "being good in mind and heart" just simply isn't enough. God paid the ultimate sacrifice for the sin of his creation (humankind) by allowing Jesus to die on the Cross for us. Through His death, our relationship with God (creator vs. creation, Father vs. Children) can be healed and mended. And unless you accept Jesus Christ as the ultimate sacrifice for your sin, my sin, our sin against God, then you're trying to reap the rewards of that relationship (eg eternal salvation) on your own merit, and not God's or Jesus's sacrifice for you.
There are so many lost souls in this world who believe if they chant, meditate, read books, and do good deeds and be a "good" people then they will go to Heaven. But God is very clear that we use these terms to justify ourselves and our sin, and there are no acts that we can do (except accept Jesus) that will bring us into a right alignment with Him.
I do believe we are in the end days of human existence, but only the Lord himself knows the exact date and time.
I hope one day you stumble over the truth and aren't too stupified to recognize it.
I'd advise taking any path that veers away from the one you're on.
I hope one day you stumble over the truth and aren't too stupified to recognize it.
I'd advise taking any path that veers away from the one you're on.
I'm sorry you feel the way you do. But I don't expect anyone not of Christ and who doesn't follow or love Jesus to accept my views, and this includes you.. Satan has a firm hold on so many lost souls in this world, and yours is one of them.
As a side note, you don't need to put my views down to justify your own or make them seem more valid. I pray one day the truth of Christ will change your heart.
I'm sorry you feel the way you do. But I don't expect anyone not of Christ and who doesn't follow or love Jesus to accept my views, and this includes you.. Satan has a firm hold on so many lost souls in this world, and yours is one of them.
How convenient to dismiss any and all who don't agree with you as minions of Satan.
I understand it; I was conditioned to reflexively do that myself, and did so for many decades, a fact which motivates me to try to help others out of that quagmire and into the light of freedom of thought. A liberated mind is a real thing that is liberated. A soul is a mental construct, asserted without evidence, that is not there to liberate. Indeed the entire salvation dilemma is an invented crisis to create demand for an unneeded product.
You can see none of this, and it is firmly in the realm of taboo for you; so of course it is easy to teach you to see it as the work of the devil. Ironically this leaves you to view your fellow man as the work of the devil, except for those who subscribe to your belief-system. And that is too bad, because it cuts you off from a lot of life and love. This, too, serves your beliefs, because it leaves you hungry and wanting, and thinking that you need to redouble and re-triple your efforts to pray enough, think purely enough, read your Bible enough, have enough faith, go to church enough, etc.
That is the true definition of "lost soul in this world". You are well acquainted with it, yet not aware of it at the same time. So you project it on the Other. Indeed the whole god / satan dichotomy is a reflection of this us / them mentation. At its worst it is like the poor young lady who posted elsewhere here recently an audio of her father's message on her answering machine, casting demons out of her. At its best, on a good day, it is a way to feel smug, nestled in your church service or sunday school picnic, regarding the Poor Lost Souls who are not there with you and thinking of ways to let them know how superior your way of life is, so that they will humbly come to you and beg to be let in. How confusing it then must be when, in the main, they do not express the expected thirst for "righteousness".
OK. I'll correct you, as you're wrong. I said or implied no such thing. All I said is that right belief is so much more important than right action, that right action only "counts" if founded on right belief.
I would not assert that evangelicals, by and large, have no concern with good works; it's just that the utility of the good works is not so much to do actual good in the world as to prove that someone has "heart belief". However, the fly in that particular ointment is that since people who don't claim this special belief of yours also do good works, and meanwhile, at times, evangelicals do evil things. Therefore works can be evidence of exactly nothing.
Indeed ... I did many good works while an evangelical, taught VBS, ran the printing press, edited a newsletter, played the organ, was first to pitch in with church initiatives, etc., yet I have had more than one evangelical claim that I couldn't have ever really been one of you, my salvation experience way back in '63 was not genuine, etc. So much for good works as proof of heart belief.
Yes, you do have to believe the right things, ie that Jesus died for your sins, to redeem you. Did you believe that? Do you still?
You say certain Christians have no concern for good works, yet you did them as a Christian. Why?
Every church I've been a part of (all Southern Baptist) has done charitable work, because of our love for God and others. I believe most, if not all churches in my area do the same. We work together on some things.
I hope one day you stumble over the truth and aren't too stupified to recognize it.
I'd advise taking any path that veers away from the one you're on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
How convenient to dismiss any and all who don't agree with you as minions of Satan.
True.
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