Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I questioned everything. I never had faith.
When I would question things, I would be told that I lacked faith and I should read my bible more. That felt like just avoiding the question and brainwashing. They called it "getting into the Word." I was shamed for not having faith, and told all the answers were in the bible, but to me, obviously, they weren't. I read the whole bible, read books about the bible, have boxes of books in my garage.
The questions never went away. I didn't understand the concept of a God who would make us to know him, yet, keep us in the dark and not show himself to us.
People would say, "But Jesus came and lived among us." That didn't work for me, he didn't live near me. That was 2,000 years ago.
Yet, they say it is a personal experience of meeting the Lord.
My questioning got me into a lot of trouble. It even has gotten me in trouble on here.
The problem isn't questioning. The problem isn't study. The problem many people have is that their questioning is worded in ways that put others on the defensive. It is hard to do otherwise; it takes much practice. I fail as much as I succeed.
Knowledge is a great thing for mediating disagreements, but faith is defined as "believing things unseen" and so knowledge is dismissed as inadequate. It makes religion and faith a tough topic.
Keep studying; keep looking. The answer truly IS within YOU. You need to find the key that unlocks your own faith, and then I truly believe you will find your faith.
I describe it like this:
Jesus spoke Aramaic. John spoke Greek. The Temple Priests spoke Hebrew. Paul spoke Greek and Latin. The church fathers spoke Latin. Martin Luther spoke German. We speak English. What language does God speak?
All of them, of course.
But if he spoke to me in German or Latin, I would not understand Him. I must listen to him with the language I know.
So it is with all people: we must listen for God with the language we know, the experiences we have had, the religions in which we find comfort and meaning. Only humans find that limiting. God doesn't.
May you find the paths that lead you to peace and joy, whatever and wherever they may be.
Ok, so tell me Father John, how does one get into heaven if it isn't through faith in Jesus Christ alone?...good works, keeping the sacraments, living a good life, how? Or perhaps you don't believe one can truly know for sure they are going to heaven until they die? Please explain your position on this...thanks!
Even an atheist knows what the bible says..."Many are called and few are chosen."There isn't anything you can do to get into heaven, according to the bible.
In Timothy, it says Jesus came to save the House of Israel, so if you're not of that house...
It is all pretty much God picking according to the bible.
Ok, so tell me Father John, how does one get into heaven if it isn't through faith in Jesus Christ alone?...good works, keeping the sacraments, living a good life, how? Or perhaps you don't believe one can truly know for sure they are going to heaven until they die? Please explain your position on this...thanks!
Goodness, Deb, does it matter what I believe? You already stated that you understand things differently. I am not interested in a dispute or debate.
That said, I will try to answer.
The concept of Heaven has been twisted and spun over the centuries, as has Hell. Sheol was the place of the dead - for everyone. Gehenna was a dump outside Jerusalem where trash was burned - and the bodies of criminals were tossed to be burned. And so started developing the idea of Hell and burning. Later, authors such as Dante created layers and images of Hell.
So also developed Heaven. The Garden of Eden was considered Paradise. It was taken away when man sinned (so goes the story). Jesus came and preached the Kingdom of God (more on this later). After his death and the resurrection experiences, he was seen as the "New Adam" who promised, and brought, a new Paradise and a New Earth. This new Paradise was called Heaven and so the concept grew.
But the Kingdom of Heaven preached by Jesus (as best we can tell from the synoptic and non-canonical gospels) was internal first to create the external. In other words, Jesus said if the Kingdom was not alive in you it would not become alive in the world. And vice versa. This is clearly works.
The idea of FAITH alone was taught by Paul (Saul) who never met Jesus, had arguments and disputes with the brother of Jesus (James), violated the rules set forth by James, and who created a whole new religion that was not the religion of Jesus. This is what we have today in many circle.
In other words, salvation (and the "way to heaven") is the creation of Paul - the religion of Paul - and not of Jesus.
This would take a book or ten to explain fully, but I hope this synopsis helps you understand. I know you will not agree, but please understand I do not hold that against you. I ask only the same in return.
John,
Some of the Jesus philosophy was that everything starts with the thought.
I always found that interesting.
I became an atheist when I was 42 years old.
It gave me more peace than trying to accept God's will that things were constantly going wrong for me, no matter how hard I worked or tried.
So I gave up.
There was more peace in thinking that if an asteroid hit the earth, it just happens, rather than a god doing it.
The bible says everything is God's will, so ultimately, the worst evil and malicious things happen with his allowance, as in Job...everything that happened to Job, God allowed. Now, when I was a Christian, I never thought Job really existed, I thought it was a metaphor. He was too perfect and his life was too perfect.
It would be pretty hard for anyone to say "Oh God, thats fine you had a wager with Satan and you let my wife, children, and everything I had be taken from me, you just went and replaced them!"
What I got out of Job was...God can do whatever he wants, and he is not a compassionate or loving being.
Okay, that became hard to accept, and again, I resorted to the "no god" universe. I feel less victimized. There is no big hidden or divine plan behind it all.
I try to be the best person I can be, try to have integrity, and do the right thing because I know that is best.
If it turns out there IS a god, then he never returned my calls or answered me, so if he chooses to damn me to hell for eternity, there is nothing I can do about it. IMO.
I questioned everything. I never had faith.
When I would question things, I would be told that I lacked faith and I should read my bible more. That felt like just avoiding the question and brainwashing. They called it "getting into the Word." I was shamed for not having faith, and told all the answers were in the bible, but to me, obviously, they weren't. I read the whole bible, read books about the bible, have boxes of books in my garage.
The questions never went away. I didn't understand the concept of a God who would make us to know him, yet, keep us in the dark and not show himself to us.
People would say, "But Jesus came and lived among us." That didn't work for me, he didn't live near me. That was 2,000 years ago.
Yet, they say it is a personal experience of meeting the Lord.
My questioning got me into a lot of trouble. It even has gotten me in trouble on here.
You sound very much like me, in that you search for the truth. I respect and admire you for that, and encourage you to continue.
If you continue, I don't believe your efforts will be in vain.
You sound very much like me, in that you search for the truth. I respect and admire you for that, and encourage you to continue.
If you continue, I don't believe your efforts will be in vain.
Oak,
That was very sweet of you, but essentially, I gave up.
I tried very hard for a very long time, and even went back to it several times.
I learned when I needed God the most, he wasn't there. That was one of my confirmations of being atheist.
Goodness, Deb, does it matter what I believe? You already stated that you understand things differently. I am not interested in a dispute or debate.
That said, I will try to answer.
The concept of Heaven has been twisted and spun over the centuries, as has Hell. Sheol was the place of the dead - for everyone. Gehenna was a dump outside Jerusalem where trash was burned - and the bodies of criminals were tossed to be burned. And so started developing the idea of Hell and burning. Later, authors such as Dante created layers and images of Hell.
So also developed Heaven. The Garden of Eden was considered Paradise. It was taken away when man sinned (so goes the story). Jesus came and preached the Kingdom of God (more on this later). After his death and the resurrection experiences, he was seen as the "New Adam" who promised, and brought, a new Paradise and a New Earth. This new Paradise was called Heaven and so the concept grew.
But the Kingdom of Heaven preached by Jesus (as best we can tell from the synoptic and non-canonical gospels) was internal first to create the external. In other words, Jesus said if the Kingdom was not alive in you it would not become alive in the world. And vice versa. This is clearly works.
The idea of FAITH alone was taught by Paul (Saul) who never met Jesus, had arguments and disputes with the brother of Jesus (James), violated the rules set forth by James, and who created a whole new religion that was not the religion of Jesus. This is what we have today in many circle.
In other words, salvation (and the "way to heaven") is the creation of Paul - the religion of Paul - and not of Jesus.
This would take a book or ten to explain fully, but I hope this synopsis helps you understand. I know you will not agree, but please understand I do not hold that against you. I ask only the same in return.
Peace.
I'm not trying to start a debate. I asked the question so I could know a little bit more about where you're coming from. I absolutely respect your right to believe however you wish. Thank you for taking the time to respond.
Oak,
That was very sweet of you, but essentially, I gave up.
I tried very hard for a very long time, and even went back to it several times.
I learned when I needed God the most, he wasn't there. That was one of my confirmations of being atheist.
I don't even really know you, but it hurts me to hear that.
Maybe it's the yearning for beauty and Love we all have in common that binds us.
If I'm open to that in myself and others, I see a reflection of the divine.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
