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Old 07-06-2015, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
12,920 posts, read 4,948,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This is so sad, I am so sorry you had to endure that, Kat. Religious leaders have a lot to answer for, I'm afraid.
That's rich.

You are an aspiring religious leader yourself! You claim to have a special relationship or contact with The Divine. And you have even managed to attract a small following.

Please spare us the feigned sympathy.
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Old 07-06-2015, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
14,070 posts, read 8,588,039 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
That's rich.

You are an aspiring religious leader yourself! You claim to have a special relationship or contact with The Divine. And you have even managed to attract a small following.

Please spare us the feigned sympathy.
Freak, you are being a bit unfair I'm afraid. Mystic does not to my knowledge aspire to be a religious leader. He hasn't founded a church. And just as I see no reason to believe in his god, I see no evidence that would lead me to believe he's feigning sympathy in this instance. He is as opposed in his way to fundamentalism as you are, so I think he understands a remarkable number of its harms quite well.
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Old 07-06-2015, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
8,435 posts, read 8,399,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
I was fortunate in that I was never vulnerable to shame / blame / condemnation and even as a small child had a relatively good ability to separate fantasy from reality enough at least not to be terrified. So I never was terrified at tales of the rapture or afraid I was going to hell (given that I was saved, it just wasn't my issue; it was only later that I realized how callous that was toward my fellow humans and what a free pass, morally speaking, I was giving to god).

But I have certainly known plenty of people who have suffered in this fashion, even before leaving the faith. They were never good enough, always doubting their salvation because they couldn't overcome "sin" or, more commonly, because they just didn't get sufficient goose bumps about "the things of god". Some of them would compulsively answer any and all altar calls "just in case", hoping that their feelings would line up with their faith or they would experience the promised "new creation" that they were supposed to become. Or so that they could have the cathartic conversion experience that others sometimes described.

I was also very lucky in that I didn't feel trapped or confined in the faith; it worked fine for me, until it didn't. And when it finally quit working for me, I was into my adult life, and did not culminate in active apostasy if you will, until my parents were dead ... and I lived far from my extended family as well. So the transition was relatively easy. Lastly my wife at the time, a Christian, was one of those rare Christians who was not threatened by my change of heart, and could still respect and love me.

And yet despite that because of all this, all my stars were perfectly aligned, you might say ... deconversion is still a lot of work, soul-searching, adaptation, and careful thought. And there's a another source of guilt I DID have to deal with ... the years I squandered with religious foolishness, the effectiveness I lost, the dumb decisions I made. The best years of my life were, basically, Not My Proudest Moment. There are many "gifts that keep on giving" from that time in my life. For example, my misguided faith caused me to marry my first wife, a "good Christian girl" who was incapable of being a real wife or mother due to eventually diagnosed mental illness. This took its toll on my two children, especially my son, and I deal with those issues all these decades later, and always will have to.

Of course, religion / faith are not the sole source of Stoopid in the world ... and I must cut myself slack, as I am as human as anyone else. It is hard though in the quiet of the night sometimes to wonder what might have been. I have often reflected how untrue the Bible verse "faith maketh not ashamed" is. No wonder so many evangelicals are so deliberately blinkered and deeply invested in their beliefs. It is not easy to admit you're THAT wrong.
I can sympathize with this. It saddens me to see some of my hard-core bible-believing relatives cut off perfectly good relationships because of a difference of opinion on religion. Their loss but oh so sad. I've had Not So Proud Moments in and out of religion but the worst were in religion against my fellow humans.
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Old 07-06-2015, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Self explanatory
10,366 posts, read 4,158,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wmsn4Life View Post
Rawstory.com? Really?
Yup. Or you can pick from any other source you like.
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Old 07-06-2015, 08:18 PM
 
37,606 posts, read 25,294,156 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
This is so sad, I am so sorry you had to endure that, Kat. Religious leaders have a lot to answer for, I'm afraid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
Thanks Mystic. The sad part is that to recover you have to come out of religion altogether to see it. Some go back to it stronger but I abandoned it altogether and haven't been happier.
I am so pleased for you, Kat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
That's rich.
You are an aspiring religious leader yourself! You claim to have a special relationship or contact with The Divine. And you have even managed to attract a small following.
Please spare us the feigned sympathy.
Wow. I don't know why you would assume I am an aspiring religious leader, Freak. I have no such goals. I am about a decade plus past my genetic expiration date. I was asked to share my views by a friend. I have been witnessing, explaining and defending them ever since. You seem to have been particularly hurt by religion, Freak. I am genuinely saddened by it. Fundamentalism causes great harm in so many ways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Freak, you are being a bit unfair I'm afraid. Mystic does not to my knowledge aspire to be a religious leader. He hasn't founded a church. And just as I see no reason to believe in his god, I see no evidence that would lead me to believe he's feigning sympathy in this instance. He is as opposed in his way to fundamentalism as you are, so I think he understands a remarkable number of its harms quite well.
Thank you, mordant. I appreciate the vote of confidence. Your perspicacity serves you well, my friend.
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Old 07-06-2015, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
12,920 posts, read 4,948,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Fundamentalism causes great harm in so many ways.
Religion causes great harm in so many ways. The fact that some religions are not as bad as others is irrelevant.

I'm quite fed up with the "no true Scotsman" argument that 'fundamentalism' is somehow "not really religion." Christians have believed in fire and brimstone for 2000 years. Ever hear of the Middle Ages? Religious wars, fear that diseases and natural disasters were divine retribution, witch burnings, the inquisition, the Crusades, and on and on.

"Fundamentalism" is simply Christianity as it has been historically practiced. "Nice Christianity," where all of the negative stuff is ignored, is a modern innovation.
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Old 07-06-2015, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
12,920 posts, read 4,948,442 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Wow. I don't know why you would assume I am an aspiring religious leader, Freak. I have no such goals.
For that I am thankful.
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Old 07-06-2015, 08:44 PM
 
37,606 posts, read 25,294,156 times
Reputation: 5860
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I am so pleased for you, Kat.
Wow. I don't know why you would assume I am an aspiring religious leader, Freak. I have no such goals. I am about a decade plus past my genetic expiration date. I was asked to share my views by a friend. I have been witnessing, explaining and defending them ever since. You seem to have been particularly hurt by religion, Freak. I am genuinely saddened by it. Fundamentalism causes great harm in so many ways.
Thank you, mordant. I appreciate the vote of confidence. Your perspicacity serves you well, my friend.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Religion causes great harm in so many ways. The fact that some religions are not as bad as others is irrelevant.
I'm quite fed up with the "no true Scotsman" argument that 'fundamentalism' is somehow "not really religion." Christians have believed in fire and brimstone for 2000 years. Ever hear of the Middle Ages? Religious wars, fear that diseases and natural disasters were divine retribution, witch burnings, the inquisition, the Crusades, and on and on.
"Fundamentalism" is simply Christianity as it has been historically practiced. "Nice Christianity," where all of the negative stuff is ignored, is a modern innovation.
Chill, my young friend. That is quite an itch you need scratched. We do not disagree about this as much as you seem to think.
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Old 07-06-2015, 10:44 PM
 
11 posts, read 5,810 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Religion causes great harm in so many ways. The fact that some religions are not as bad as others is irrelevant.

I'm quite fed up with the "no true Scotsman" argument that 'fundamentalism' is somehow "not really religion." Christians have believed in fire and brimstone for 2000 years. Ever hear of the Middle Ages? Religious wars, fear that diseases and natural disasters were divine retribution, witch burnings, the inquisition, the Crusades, and on and on.

"Fundamentalism" is simply Christianity as it has been historically practiced. "Nice Christianity," where all of the negative stuff is ignored, is a modern innovation.
Hmmm...sounds like you are still fighting Fundamentalism. Fundamentalism came about in the United States only recently. Well, here is an article by the Encyclopedia Britannica, it might be nice to read it to see how different history is from what your former Pastors taught you:

Christian fundamentalism | American Protestant movement | Britannica.com
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Old 07-06-2015, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
12,920 posts, read 4,948,442 times
Reputation: 5000
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomCom34 View Post
Hmmm...sounds like you are still fighting Fundamentalism. Fundamentalism came about in the United States only recently. Well, here is an article by the Encyclopedia Britannica, it might be nice to read it to see how different history is from what your former Pastors taught you:

Christian fundamentalism | American Protestant movement | Britannica.com
Read the works of Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, etc. if you want to see what the first Protestant leaders believed. Whether or not said beliefs quality as "fundamentalism" is a matter of semantics.
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