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Well bully for you. The Bible says that mankind rebelled because they wanted to be like God. It had less to do with eating a magic apple and more to do with disobedience. But hey....this board is all about people spouting off their own crazy ideas about God, right?
But the Book of Freak says that sin is due to the first humans drinking a few too many Mango smoothies. Anyone who doubts the Book of Freak will be tortured forever in a pit of snakes after they die. It says so right in the Book of Freak.
Wouldn't it really depend largely on 'what sin is' as to whether the brain evolved to be sinful?
The brain and the rest of our body evolved for our survival (not our enjoyment). All that religion has done by declaring some things "sinful" is to misidentify the source of difficulties / suffering / dysfunction in humans, attached infinite eternal punishment to it, and then sold a contrived cure for a fake disease.
The real problem is that much of our default behavior is driven by the need to survive in environments that we don't often encounter in the modern world, hence agency inference, confirmation bias, tribal and territorial tendencies, etc. We have to work to override these automatic responses so that we can get along and build just and peaceful societies to live in. If we would focus on that and not listen to those "nattering nabobs of negativisim"* who claim that we can't control our behavior or improve our situation without the magic fairy dust they have for sale, we would make faster progress overall.
The brain and the rest of our body evolved for our survival (not our enjoyment). All that religion has done by declaring some things "sinful" is to misidentify the source of difficulties / suffering / dysfunction in humans, attached infinite eternal punishment to it, and then sold a contrived cure for a fake disease.
The real problem is that much of our default behavior is driven by the need to survive in environments that we don't often encounter in the modern world, hence agency inference, confirmation bias, tribal and territorial tendencies, etc. We have to work to override these automatic responses so that we can get along and build just and peaceful societies to live in. If we would focus on that and not listen to those "nattering nabobs of negativisim"* who claim that we can't control our behavior or improve our situation without the magic fairy dust they have for sale, we would make faster progress overall.
* With apologies to Spiro Agnew.
That's the best and most concise summary of the human condition I have seen to date.
The brain and the rest of our body evolved for our survival (not our enjoyment). All that religion has done by declaring some things "sinful" is to misidentify the source of difficulties / suffering / dysfunction in humans, attached infinite eternal punishment to it, and then sold a contrived cure for a fake disease.
The real problem is that much of our default behavior is driven by the need to survive in environments that we don't often encounter in the modern world, hence agency inference, confirmation bias, tribal and territorial tendencies, etc. We have to work to override these automatic responses so that we can get along and build just and peaceful societies to live in. If we would focus on that and not listen to those "nattering nabobs of negativisim"* who claim that we can't control our behavior or improve our situation without the magic fairy dust they have for sale, we would make faster progress overall.
* With apologies to Spiro Agnew.
When cultures begin to out-shine formative ideas regarding "G()D" it could be seen as a good thing.
To have been able to have overcome the by-gone concepts and moved into more civilized rational is amazing really. There is work to do of course, and it isn't a sure thing that secular thought will see us through as a species and survive - and even overcome that survival drive and replace it with something more appropriate to the science and engineering and fair moral insight of modern thinking and action...
...I wrote a poem about it...
If I could give some good advice - always look twice
Whatever road you might be travelling on
Look all evil in the eye - oh - and by the by
Live today as if tomorrow you'll be gone
All your fears regarding death
Put them all to rest
There's no use worrying about the things that can't be known
There may be nothing in the end my friend - just oblivion
or there might be another place that you'll be going...
...but here is where we are right now...
Always sing an honest song
Don't be afraid to get it wrong
Everyone is on this learning curve
From rough to smooth we can all improve
For the good of all concerned
Be like water to the rock
and learn to swerve
Be in the moment live for today
Let our worries slip away
Be patient - we all know this road is long
Surround ourselves in kindness
Know that love is the finest
Thing that we ever have to focus on
No. God knew they would be disobedient the whole time. He had a redemption plan before they even ate of the fruit. He is omniscient. He knows all.
Yeah, right....He created humans through incest while knowing that he would destroy them and start over with even more incest....I think god must be a moron....It's a good thing it is fantasy, isn't it?
This whole "tree of knowledge" thing is just stupid, but you have to admit that knowledge is still the enemy of faith.... The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.....Benjamin Franklin
Incidentally it takes approximately 50 of each species to repopulate....Two just doesn't do it.
Yeah, right....He created humans through incest while knowing that he would destroy them and start over with even more incest....I think god must be a moron....It's a good thing it is fantasy, isn't it?
This whole "tree of knowledge" thing is just stupid, but you have to admit that knowledge is still the enemy of faith.... The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.....Benjamin Franklin
Incidentally it takes approximately 50 of each species to repopulate....Two just doesn't do it.
Ridiculous isn't it? And yet Vizio represents the thinking of a large segment of the U.S. Population. Scary isn't it?
I believe based on our current understanding of brain science, that our brains evolved to adapt to our surroundings and our so called "sinful" behaviors and emotions of anger, lust, greed, etc. were required to survive. The whole biblical story of eating some fruit that somehow had embedded into it "knowledge of good and evil" and then this led to so called "sinful" behavior is preposterous in my opinion.
Reread the story. Essentially, if eating a fruit gives you knowledge, and this is passed down to your children, this means there is a sort of cultural evolution similar to what you just described.
It is sad that those with zero intelligence, make comments about something they have no knowledge .
Of all people at least most people know that certain foods and chemicals have an effect on the body and brain.
You all probably never went to school or learned any thing except to horse around, and BS with our buddies.
It is not unreasonable to accept that there could have been such a tree in existence that would cause the brain to make connections that gave man something he did not have originally, or even for that matter LOST something he had originally, or both.
Alcohol kills brain cells, that's when the drunkenness occurs.
The issue of Adam was not just the eating of the fruit, but disobedience.
He chose to listen to a lie , calling God a liar, much like you.
Secondly ,
God spoke men and women in to existence before Adam ,if you bother to actually read and comprehend.
Adam ,unlike other men,, was made/formed from the dust of the ground, And God breathed into him the breath of life, giving HIM a living soul .
This effect Adam derived from the fruit, was strong enough that he did not repent, nor as forgiveness for it ,and was banished from the garden .
His influence had an effect on all man.
Acquiring knowledge, independent of God.
This has been the heart of the issue through out time.
It is sad that those with zero intelligence, make comments about something they have no knowledge .
Of all people at least most people know that certain foods and chemicals have an effect on the body and brain.
You all probably never went to school or learned any thing except to horse around, and BS with our buddies.
It is not unreasonable to accept that there could have been such a tree in existence that would cause the brain to make connections that gave man something he did not have originally, or even for that matter LOST something he had originally, or both.
Alcohol kills brain cells, that's when the drunkenness occurs.
None of which means diddly-squat.
Eden was supposed to be a paradise ... so why was there a tree there that could affect the human brain like that? And why was there only ONE such tree and why was it in such convenient reach of Adam and Eve? If God wanted to ensure that no human ate from it, he could have put the damn thing in the core of a neutron star a billion light years away. But oh no, God practically put that forbidden tree right in the faces of Adam and Eve, warned them not to eat from it, and then left. The malicious sod was probably giggling on his way out knowing damn well Eve was going to eat it. And, just to make sure she did, God allowed a talking snake into paradise - ostensibly Satan - to talk Eve into it.
Well, I don't know about you, but to me, paradise represents a place where nothing is going to go wrong and everything is safe. So why there was a demon prince in paradise smooth-talking Eve to commit the first sin ... hey, who knows why? And we're not supposed to think that hard about it anyway. We're just supposed to open our mouths, close our eyes (and brain), and let religion pour down our throats. Don't ask, don't doubt, don't think. Just swallow that mythology and go "yum, yum, yum, can I have some more!?!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh
The issue of Adam was not just the eating of the fruit, but disobedience.
He chose to listen to a lie , calling God a liar, much like you.
We all know it was about disobedience. That's why several of us atheists were calling God, as someone else put it, "a tiny god in a box." Thing is, every time God doled out a punishment in the Old Testament, it was because of disobedience. And I'm not talking about murder or genocide (those were GOOD things in the eyes of God). No, I'm talking about petty, stupid, trivial things that any God, especially a God we're taught is FORGIVING, wouldn't have thrown such an immature, petulant fit over them.
I think one of the worst individual examples of this was how God punished Moses by essentially killing Moses within sight of the Promised Land. Why? Because God had told Moses to speak to the stone and it would produce water. But Moses thumped the stone twice with his staff and then told the stone to spew water. God was so pissy about that little infraction that God refused to allow Moses entry into the Promised Land -- never mind how Moses did all the work in getting the Hebrews there in the first place all the while being God's right-hand man, mouthpiece, and law enforcer. Note how Moses did not receive even a SINGLE reward for doing all of that, but boy, one tiny step out of line and whammo! God gives Moses a punishment completely out of proportion to the so-called "crime."
Yeah, this is the kind of malicious and petty entity we're dealing with here -- a being that is SO narcissistic and driven by ego that even the slightest, tiniest deviation away from what God wants brings all kinds of wrath and punishment. And just because you're innocent doesn't mean you'll get away, either. If you're unfortunate enough to be innocent but living in a city (or on a planet) that God is angry with, forget it. You're as good as dead, too. If you're a woman, you can forget it ... twice. Because women don't count and aren't considered at ALL when God is tallying up the "naughty and nice" list to see if such-and-such a city needs to be wiped out.
After all, I very much doubt that every last Hebrew was spontaneously worshiping a golden calf for no discernible reason whatsoever ... but that didn't matter. Screw 'em. Make 'em ALL walk around in circles for 40 years! Because he's a just and fair God, dontch'ya know.
The point of all this is to show beyond doubt and using actual Biblical stories to illustrate how God is probably the most unfair and unjust character ever written about in a story book. So why, then, should we expect the Garden of Eden to have been a level playing field? Of course it wasn't. It was most decidedly UN-fair ... a set-up from the very beginning. Despite this transparent trick, there are still so many believers who drag around "original sin" like a ball and chain as if they, themselves, were personally responsible for bringing sin into the world. Even though I sometimes give them an earful, it's really quite sad that these folks have been duped into believing such a thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh
Secondly ,
God spoke men and women in to existence before Adam ,if you bother to actually read and comprehend.
Adam ,unlike other men,, was made/formed from the dust of the ground, And God breathed into him the breath of life, giving HIM a living soul .
This is an etiology ... a story used in place of a real explanation when the real explanation isn't known. It's the kind of thing adults tell children at night when they're afraid -- like saying thunder is the result of angels bowling in heaven. That's not what thunder is, of course, but it placates the kiddies and lets them rest easier during a storm.
Just like this fanciful story of Adam and Eve placates adults who can't accept the reality of humans evolving or that we just don't know yet how life got started. It's also a way to explain why we have to farm for our food, why childbirth is painful, why snakes have to slither, and most important of all: why there is suffering in the world.
None of that happened. There was no magical god speaking universes into existence or creating humans from a pile of dirt and a rib. That's nonsense, an allegory at BEST but more accurately an etiology. Listening to people who actually believe this stuff is historical fact damn near brings a tear to my eye. Religion is replete with creation myths of all kinds, all of them offering up magical, supernatural, or superstitious explanations for our existence. The Christian explanation is just one of a thousand such stories, it not being any more convincing than the other 999. There's simply no reason to believe that humans came from a pile of dirt and a rib any more than there's a reason to believe humans were created by the Chinese goddess Nu Kua by kneading yellow earth. Why not believe in the Nu Kua story? Because you were born in a Christian nation instead of in China? And remember, those who believe in Nu Kua believe in her just as fervently as you believe in Yahweh, so you can't use the strength of your belief or your personal "surety" or "certainty" as a reason. The Chinese will tell you the same thing about their beliefs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh
This effect Adam derived from the fruit, was strong enough that he did not repent, nor as forgiveness for it ,and was banished from the garden .
Yeah, this is just yet another example of why God was a tyrant, not this loving, caring, just, and fair deity that most Westerners are hoodwinked into believing exists. Even though God knew that Adam was under the effects of a drug, he still gets totally butthurt because Adam didn't repent for his disobedience. Yeah, right. That's like expecting the fraternity drunk to apologize for his drunkeness while he's still staggering around with a lampshade on his head and vomit drooling out of his mouth. Not gonna happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh
His influence had an effect on all man.
Which is physiologically impossible. No drug will stay in the system so long and be so potent as to affect someone's offspring through thousands of generations. Not unless you believe God tinkered with it perhaps deliberately creating a magical fruit that WOULD stay in the body and be passed on to generation after generation. Of course, that only proves once again how this entire fantasy was a set-up from the get-go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arleigh
Acquiring knowledge, independent of God.
This has been the heart of the issue through out time.
As someone else quite accurately pointed out, knowledge has always been the enemy of faith and religion. That has also been an issue throughout time. One does not have to be literally dumb to believe in these literal translations of holy books but one DOES have to be willfully ignorant -- someone who eschews the formal education process whenever it doesn't align with scripture. Like it or not, that quite often gives the appearance of, shall we say, limited intelligence. Few Christians today think the Bible is historical fact, that Man really was created from a pile of dirt and a rib, that Noah really did cram millions of animals into an ark, that Jonah really did spend several days lollygagging around in the stomach of a "big fish." Few people really believe in those things ... and rightly so.
Believing in a higher power does not mean one has to automatically accept the absurd, the impossible, and the preposterous.
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