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Old 01-28-2008, 08:27 AM
 
479 posts, read 1,003,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringwielder View Post
I would like to know in the Scriptures where it talks about Purgatory, Rosary beads, Mary being 'ever virgin', Black Madonnas, Veneration of religious images, Relics, Incense burning....eg... the 5 grains of incense, symbolizing the 5 wounds of Christ, inserted into the Paschal candle on Easter? Palaces for the clergy, the Pope! and many more. There are so many man made traditions in the Catholic Church, its no wonder people think its not Christian.

I think the Bible somewhere says that you should not add to or take away one word of scripture. The Catholics have built up a whole new world of their own beliefs and traditions. And their history, like that of much of Christianity, has been one of bloodshed and compromise, and many of the Popes have been immoral, greedy, cruel individuals.

Doesnt speak to me of truth, or following Christ and his message.

There's a lot of things wrong about the Catholic religion, it's just important that we be careful to not labeling all who attend Catholic Churches as not being Christian. God will make the determination on who he deems to possess the qualities of Christ in the end. Remember the Pharisees knew the scripture as well as anyone, and in the end the turned out not to be Christians based on the spirit in which they were using the knowledge that was given to them. Still, it is very important as you've mentioned above to point out the fallacies which can be found in many doctrines, so all can come to a general understanding of the Truth/Love of God's Word.
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Old 01-28-2008, 08:29 AM
 
Location: South Seattle Suburbs
3,349 posts, read 5,680,902 times
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Catholics recite this at Mass every week:

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God,
Eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
True God from true God,
Begotten, not made, one in being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven.
By the power of the Holy Spirit, he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate.
He suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again, in fulfillment of the scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
And his kingdom will have no end.


If that isn't Christianity, I don't know what is!
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Old 01-28-2008, 09:10 AM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,237,197 times
Reputation: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringwielder View Post
I would like to know in the Scriptures where it talks about Purgatory, Rosary beads, Mary being 'ever virgin', Black Madonnas, Veneration of religious images, Relics, Incense burning....eg... the 5 grains of incense, symbolizing the 5 wounds of Christ, inserted into the Paschal candle on Easter? Palaces for the clergy, the Pope! and many more. There are so many man made traditions in the Catholic Church, its no wonder people think its not Christian.

I think the Bible somewhere says that you should not add to or take away one word of scripture. The Catholics have built up a whole new world of their own beliefs and traditions. And their history, like that of much of Christianity, has been one of bloodshed and compromise, and many of the Popes have been immoral, greedy, cruel individuals.

Doesnt speak to me of truth, or following Christ and his message.

Not everything Jesus said or did is in the Bible. Just check John 21:25. And that's scripture.

Most Catholic doctrines are either directly born of scripture or derived. Since the early Church didn't have a Bible, the gospel was, of course, spread orally. Also, the early Church (includes Apostles and the disciples of the Apostles) baptized babies, believed that the Eucharist was the actual body and blood of Christ. They believed in the purification of the spirit before entering into heaven. This is all before the Catholics put together the Bible in the 4th century. Since there wasn't a Bible when Jesus started the Catholic Church, they had to use anything they could. The bottom line is is that the Catholic Church was given the Authority by Jesus to permit and forbid things here on earth and gave that right to Peter, the first Pope. Any person can read scripture and should read scripture, but final authority on it's interpretation has been given to Peter and his successors. Some of you might think that's tyranny, but it's actually a blessing because of all the Bible's ambiguity and confliction. Without a single point of authority, you get over 32,000+ interpretations of the truth from Protestant churches that use the Bible as their source of truth. Ask yourself how many truths can there be? I say there can only be ONE truth and since Jesus HIMSELF gave that authority to Peter (Matthew 16:18-19), I am going to the Church that Jesus created, not a church of man-made origin. Have there been bad Popes? You bet. They are humans like the rest of us. But like Jesus promised that the gates of Hell will not destroy His Church (Matthew 16:18). And thus, the Catholic Church and 2000 years of history and traditions remain today despite all the problems from years past.

Again, I say, go to a downtown Catholic Cathedral where there are so many people that you will go unnoticed and sit in the back. Decide for yourself if Catholics are Christians or not. Anything else is just hearsay.

Last edited by juj; 01-28-2008 at 09:19 AM..
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Old 01-28-2008, 09:21 AM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 2,237,197 times
Reputation: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by YoAdrian View Post
Catholics recite this at Mass every week:

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God,
Eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
True God from true God,
Begotten, not made, one in being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven.
By the power of the Holy Spirit, he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate.
He suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again, in fulfillment of the scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
And his kingdom will have no end.


If that isn't Christianity, I don't know what is!
Amen! Amen!
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:49 AM
 
14,752 posts, read 26,590,944 times
Reputation: 8681
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringwielder View Post
I think the Bible somewhere says that you should not add to or take away one word of scripture. The Catholics have built up a whole new world of their own beliefs and traditions. And their history, like that of much of Christianity, has been one of bloodshed and compromise, and many of the Popes have been immoral, greedy, cruel individuals.

Doesnt speak to me of truth, or following Christ and his message.

You are speaking about the institution and not the members personally. I'm a working stiff that pulled my way through more than one college degree and plan to work until I'm 67, live a normal middle-class existence and am not well-connected. The Catholic church is the one in which I was raised and their educational system gave me excellent skills. All of the priests and nuns that taught me were accessible, unpretentious and concerned. They lived in institutional looking communal accommodations next to the parish or the high school. In fact, look at the numbers of Catholic missionaries who work with the poorest of people in corners of the globe you and I could never imagine... for altruistic purposes. Even if these villagers convert, I doubt they would line the coffers of the Catholic church. Let's get real. If that isn't a Christian, I don't know what is. And that goes for the Baptists and Lutherans who travel to those disadvantaged corners of the world as well.

Any PYRAMID shaped organization has corruption and greed...such as most corporations and even religious sects. Those at the top live quite well. Lookly at some of the glitzy non-denominational mega churches that exist and some of those people have been embroiled in scandal as well. Any church seat is usually incredibly ornate, including the national or city cathedrals of the Protestant sects. One would only expect that. Architectural comments aside, power corrupts, let's face it. And, yes, sir or mam, the Inquisition and some chapters of the Papacy are scandalous and a black eye for Catholicism. Some of us are deeply ashamed. However, as people have become empowered, social controls and the courage to rebel have come to be and that is less likely to happen today, if at all. Any church leader in the public eye is subject to constant media observation and hopefully kept "in check." This is an advantage of the media as opposed to a disadvantage.

As for the institutions and rituals created, let's leave that as a freedom to worship as we see fit. Am I criticizing the rites in a Protestant church? No. It's not relevant. The underlying message is the same. Catholicism, in a way, mirrors the heightened pageantry of the art and culture (IMO) found in the Mediterranean basin where that church is seated and well-established whereas the Protestants (Quakers, Amish, fundamentalists) did not have the circumstances to transport the articles of their churches. And this could be said of Catholicism in the Southwest, where one might find very crude Catholic chapels in the deserts of AZ and NM.

There are about 58 to 60 million Catholics in the United States of who most, again, are working stiffs just like you or I in some bland suburb or small town in America. They look for the same things that any OT + NT follower of Christianity craves (the guidance to do the right thing while on earth, being moral, humility, grace and salvation). Most of the garden variety Catholics I know are great examples of upstanding and conventional living. For that matter, so are most of the Protestants I know (from the fundamentalist ones to the more "organized" ones).

I guess the point I'm trying to make, and I'm the one who started this thread, is when people get all bent out of shape about the structured schedule of our Mass service and things like Mary or the Rosary when they should be concentrating on what unifies us. It is irksome, at the very least. In a way, I think it's more like a war between cereal companies or deodorant companies as to which brand has the most market share this month. And that is not the way the Lord wanted it to be.

Bottom line: All OT + NT based religions are Christian religions. Whether a person is Christian-like is an individual situation as to how they follow the OT + NT teachings, particularly NT teachings. I say this after taking a college course called "Teachings of the New Testament." (The word Catholic was never mentioned in one semester and, instead, the course focused on what it meant to be a Christian, and this was at a Catholic university). And people should back off from the history and institutional issues of an organization and focus on the constituents now and today, thus respecting members of any Christian sect.

Thank you.
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Old 01-28-2008, 10:56 AM
 
479 posts, read 1,003,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpolyglot View Post
Bottom line: All OT + NT based religions are Christian religions. Whether a person is Christian-like is an individual situation as to how they follow the OT + NT teachings, particularly NT teachings. And people should back off from the history and institutional issues of an organization and focus on the constituents now and today, thus respecting members of any Christian sect.

Thank you.
Well, I wouldn't go as far as stating that they're all Christian or represent the teachings of Christ. If that were the case, one would have to qualify the Harry-Christna's, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Islam, as well as the many other really confusing sects based on both OT/NT as Christian as well.

I think the point that should be made, is to focus on doctrine as oppossed to individuals. It's not up for us to judge who has fulfilled God's will, to our Master(Christ) we have either fallen or we have endured the test and done well. So our primary focus within our Christian walk, should be to focus on spreading Truth and Love of it - and hopefully in doing so we'll get rid of any error in the process. Sometimes spreading Truth means the exposing of false doctrines and ideologies within a Church. False doctrines can be found in many different Churches of God nowadays, some more so than others. It's important as partakers of Christ that we identify all of the doctrines to look out for, without assigning judgement or condemnation to an individual.
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:06 AM
 
14,752 posts, read 26,590,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
Again, I say, go to a downtown Catholic Cathedral where there are so many people that you will go unnoticed and sit in the back. Decide for yourself if Catholics are Christians or not. Anything else is just hearsay.
Yes, absolutely. I've thought of that exact same thing myself as I sit at Mass, thinking about some Protestants who, with it being past the year 2000, are still apt to criticize.

Go to either an inner-city cathedral or a parish church in an unpretentious area of town, for contrast, and observe. I think you may be touched by the humility and kindness of the people you will find. Or you mail feel their pain and suffering, or the banality of their lives and their search for meaning. It will be very much like where you worship.

So, go to a couple of parishes, if you so care, unnoticed, listen to the service (about 45 to 55 minutes) and the content of the songs, and then observe the people to get a read on them...before you pass judgment.
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:15 AM
 
479 posts, read 1,003,042 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertpolyglot View Post
Yes, absolutely. I've thought of that exact same thing myself as I sit at Mass, thinking about some Protestants who, with it being past the year 2000, are still apt to criticize.

Go to either an inner-city cathedral or a parish church in an unpretentious area of town, for contrast, and observe. I think you may be touched by the humility and kindness of the people you will find. Or you mail feel their pain and suffering, or the banality of their lives and their search for meaning. It will be very much like where you worship.

So, go to a couple of parishes, if you so care, unnoticed, listen to the service (about 45 to 55 minutes) and the content of the songs, and then observe the people to get a read on them...before you pass judgment.
I'd agree. But at the same time - would you agree that Truth should reign over error in the spreading of God's Word?
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:15 AM
 
14,752 posts, read 26,590,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simpleton View Post
Well, I wouldn't go as far as stating that they're all Christian or represent the teachings of Christ. If that were the case, one would have to qualify the Harry-Christna's, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christian Science, Islam, as well as the many other really confusing sects based on both OT/NT as Christian as well.
No, that list doesn't qualify. I'm talking about formalities here...if a person where to be admitted to a hospital and they would have to "check the box" for Christian, it typically means those who use the Old Testament and New Testament for their doctrine and nothing else.

This would mean (for the most part) as I understand it:

1. All Protestant groups (from fundamentalist to Episcopal/Anglican, and anything in between....so long as there are no other books)

2. All Roman Catholics

3. All Eastern Rite Orthodox Christian churches (Greek Orthodox, Mennonites, Assyrian and Armenian Orthodox rites, etc.)

There are only minor interpretative differences of the New Testament and most of the difference is in the structure of the ritual and formality/lack thereof.

CAVEAT: I will not opine as to whether Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are in this group because of the additional books and teachings which appear to contrast greatly with the content of the above. Muslims and Hare-Krishna's are certainly not in this group.

I'm talking about the formal and traditional definition of what is a Christian and let's leave it at that.
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Old 01-28-2008, 11:19 AM
 
14,752 posts, read 26,590,944 times
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Originally Posted by simpleton View Post
I'd agree. But at the same time - would you agree that Truth should reign over error in the spreading of God's Word?
If you mean adherence to the New Testament as to how one lives his or her life as what is professed to be the Truth, then yes, if that is your question. All Christians hold the New Testament to be the Truth.
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