It irks me when people say Catholics AREN'T Christians (priest, protestants, Mary)

[AcadianIrish]

Hi Razzel!
I'm glad you cleared that up. It's so hard to tell what people are saying on these posts when you can't see their face, hear their tone or understand their sense of humour. I'm not offended, and again, thanks for explaining why you said what you did.

To be honest with you........I have NEVER heard a prayer like the one you said your mother used to recite? Did she make that up herself? I can assure you......it's not taught in the Catholic Church. I will concede that there are a lot of misconceptions with some people WITHIN the Catholic Church (as with any religion) as to WHAT they are actually doing when praying to saints or dead relatives. This should be cleared up immediately if we know of a Catholic that thinks he/she is worshipping Mary or anyone else for that matter.
Having said that....this doesn't mean the "Church" itself is teaching it.......it's just someones perception of what they THOUGHT they were taught.
They could clear up any confusion on that matter by studying the "Cathesicism of the Catholic Church."
The most we say that might sound confusing to others when praying to Mary is "Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God......PRAY for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen"
We are acknowledging she is blessed and we are asking for her prayers since we can pretty much guarantee she is in heaven..........(if we can be sure of anyone who is in heaven).

In my personal opinion......I think there are many Catholics who aren't helping their case any by going a little "overboard" in their prayers to her.......and put too much emphasis on her......they lose sight sometimes of who they are praying to.......but.....the CATHOLIC CHURCH does not teach them to do that.......nor encourage them to do that. We are only taught that it is NOT sinful to acknowledge the saints in heaven and if you would like to talk to them/pray to them....you are encouraged to do so but are warned...they are NOT to be worshipped.
God alone is our creator. Through Jesus Christ, His only Son we are saved. The rest of the prayers to saints and dead relatives, etc.......is meant to be dialogue like you and I are talking now. Asking each other for prayer and sometimes even counsel. When talking with a friend or elder whom I respect.....I might start out the conversation telling them how much I love and respect them......then proceed with explaining my problem in hopes for some counsel.
God doesn't expect us to take on this world alone.....we need HIM first......but he also wanted us to have family and friends to support us. We aren't separated by death. Mary was his earthly mother. I can't imagine he would be angry with us for talking to her??

Hope this helps clear up some of the "misconceptions" about Mary that perhaps even your mother had or was taught by someone who was also misguided as to the teachings of the Church. Like I said before......the beauty of this religion is.....we have it in writing....like a manual......so if anyone is confused.......we just LOOK IT UP! LOL

[RAZZEL]

Hi AcadianIrish,

"Thank you" for your understanding!!! I do not like to have ill feelings.

My Mom is 80yo and went to a Catholic School as a child back in the midwest. Mom was raised Catholic. I think this was a prayer that they, as children, had to recite or pray and it was taught to the children by the nuns. It was not something that Mom made up.

Again, I thank you!!!!

"May Our Heavenly Father Bless You!!!!"

[AcadianIrish]

Very kind of you Razzel!
God Bless you and your family also!

[AcadianIrish]

I forgot to address the nuns and your 80 year old mother....I'm not surprised that something like that went on. Some of the Catholic Clergy over the years, seem to be the worst offenders of misrepresenting the beliefs of the Universal Church. It's sad really because a lot of people were mislead or abused by some very misguided individuals who belonged to our Church. Unfortunately, they looked liked they were representing what our Universal Church believed.

We Catholics have seen our share of scandal and disobidence over the years by some members. I hope God has mercy on their souls......they need it. (To whom much is given.......much is expected.)

Enjoy the rest of your day and it was very nice chatting with you!

[camping!]

Originally Posted by RAZZEL

I never said that I feel or felt superior to Catholics.

Where did you get that from???????
I was simply stating ONE difference. There are many. I can not and do not judge anyone. How do I know what is in your heart? Who am I?

Again, I meant no disrespect- to anyone-

I'm sorry that I took your post wrong........as has been noted before, there is no 'tone' when talking via the internet. I believe I became defensive as I have received one too many times a pamplet depicting Jews and Catholics burning in hell by those 'Christian Missionaries' that troll my neighborhood from time to time. So, sorry about my knee jerk (emphasis on jerk) reaction.

Oh, and I went to Catholic school and in fact teach Religious Ed. and have never come across the prayer your mom used to say. Perhaps it was cultural? Or common to the area where she grew up?

Have a good day.

[Verdor]

Originally Posted by AcadianIrish

I can't tell if "Razzel" actually read my post and is disagreeing with me or is trying to tell me he knows the Catholic Doctrine better than thoursands of clergy and the Pope? I am a practicing Roman Catholic and I'm telling you we are NOT worshipping anyone or anything other than God. I know what my church teaches.

I don't follow my faith/religion blindly. I'm dispelling the "myth" for whoever is interested in finding truth. If you go to the source (a Catholic) and get a direct answer about something you are confused about however, still decide to go ahead and claim something is NOT what it is.....wouldn't that be gossip? Spreading false rumours and lies? I hope that is not what you are trying to do. Promoting "division" rather than pursuing truth and unity in not pleasing to God.

There is a sin called "presumation".
I do not presume to know who is in heaven and who is in hell. I would guess there are millions of Catholics in hell as well as Protestants, Jews, Muslims, etc.........No religion is exempt because you cry "Lord, Lord I know you".
My job is to be a good Catholic/Christian and to ask the Lord daily for mercy because we are all sinners.

SIN is black and white........but circumstances are not.
To commit sin........you have to be AWARE it's a sin.......and WILLFULLY choose to commit it.
I truly hope God takes into account our life experience......level of intelligence.......education.....country you were born into (3rd world) etc, when passing judgement on our eternal salvation.
We "Christians" have faith.......but are we being charitable in our deeds and words? ("That you do to the least of my brothers....you do unto me.")

For the record: The Catholic Church does not teach us that we are the only religion who can get to heaven. We only know that Christ said he would leave us a "Visible" Church and the gates of hell would not prevail. HISTORICALLY, the Catholic Church was the 1st church (that is not my opinion....read history books that aren't "religious").

Christ suffered and died for our sins so that we COULD enter heaven.......that doesn't mean we are guaranteed it. He gave us the opportunity to ask for forgiveness and to be forgiven. For God to send his only son to suffer and die for us......just affirms in my mind....he WANTS us in heaven. He isn't looking for every little "reason" to send us to hell. Sounds like he is trying to be as merciful as he can without "forcing" his will on us since he gave us free will.

To the other comment about Jesus being a Jew.......you are correct. He certainly was. The Catholic Church acknowledges that.
Jesus could NOT have been a Christian himself because the religion did not exsist until JESUS created it. He was not technically a "Christian"........how could he be? He wasn't following HIMSELF......WE Christians are following HIM! I hope that explantion helps in clearing up the Christian/Jewish confusion?

I certainly don't mind having an intelligent exchange with people if they want to learn what the Catholic Church is teaching but I'm not here to boast that I'm better than anyone else or that I have all the answers. I don't. I'm trying to explain to those who are curious about the Catholic Church and its' true teachings, what we, as an universal instuition believe.
If you are already convinced that Catholics are a cult and are going to hell and want to plug your ears and say "nah, nah, nah.......I can't hear you", then I'm sorry you are choosing to react that way. You have already made up your mind.
I will pray for you and you pray for me.

Don't just take my "word" for it. Please do the research yourself to fully comprehend what my posts are discussing. There is plenty of historical (not religious) material to back up the comments I have made.
"The Cathesicm of The Catholic Church" (sort of like a manual) to dispel any myths you might have about what the teachings are of the Catholic Church is another place to do your research if you are concerned about any of our practices. That is the beauty of this religion. We don't have to go by one person's opinion.
You can't argue with facts.......you can only disagree with them.

The Roman Catholic Church is definitely a Christian church; however it is not the oldest Christian church. The oldest Christian church would be the Greek Orthodox Church at Jerusalem. The Patriarch of Rome, who eventually became known as the Pope was not even established until the First Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D. and when it was established all of its masses, liturgies and ceremonies were conducted in Greek. Pope Damasus I switched from the Greek rite to Latin rite around 370 A.D.

Early Christianity is commonly defined as the Christianity of the three centuries between the Crucifixion of Jesus (c. 30) and the First Council of Nicaea (325). The major primary source for first century Christianity (the Apostolic Age) is the Acts of the Apostles. At first, the church was centered in Jerusalem, and one of the leaders was James the Just, who may have been a relative of Jesus, and was martyred in c. 62. Following the Great Commission, the missionary activity of the Apostles, including Paul of Tarsus, spread Christianity to cities throughout the Hellenistic world, such as Alexandria (Greek Orthodox) and Antioch (Greek Orthodox), and also to Rome and even beyond the Roman Empire. The term "Christian" was first applied to members of the church at Antioch according to Acts 11:26. The New Testament includes letters written by Paul to churches, such as those in Thessalonica and Corinth, during the years 50-62, see also Seven Churches of Asia. Christians continued to revere the Hebrew Bible, using the Septuagint translation that was in general use among Greek-speakers, or the Targums in use among Aramaic-speakers, but added to it their own writings.

The Pope, also called the Bishop of Rome and the Patriarch of the West was considered to be the first bishop in the church but not the first church. The Patriarch of Rome was given the highest honor or primacy, but NOT the supremacy over the Christian Churches, most likely because Rome was a powerful city at the time, which it meant it would be the best guardian of the Christian faith, which was spreading rapidly throughout the Roman Empire and beyond. The primacy is defined as "first, among equals" not as the ruler of the Christian faith. Source: Eastern Churches and Patriarchates. Likewise, the Patriarch of Constantinople (Greek Orthodox) is called "first, among equals" by the other Eastern Orthodox Churches, such as the Russian, Serbian, Romanian, Bulgarian and other Orthodox churches because Constantinople or New Rome was the capital of the Roman Empire for 1,000 years after the fall of Rome. It was in Constantinople that Christianity became the official state religion of the Roman Empire.

Initially, the Christian faith was scattered and practiced underground due to Roman persecution. The Romans declared that anyone can practice their own religion as long as they recognize the spiritual and political authority of the Roman Emperor and the Roman Empire. Christians refused to do this, claiming God was the spiritual authority of all. As a result, Christians were persecuted and became known as martyrs. The Christian religion sprang up from Jewish roots and the temple at Jerusalem became the first Christian church and today it is the Greek Orthodox Church of Jerusalem where the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is. It was Greek Jews who translated the Bible from Hebrew into Greek and the New Testament was written in Greek by the early Christians. As Christianity became more organized and unified it became known as the Orthodox Catholic Church. Orthodox is Greek for correct, straight or true path to the glorifying of God while Catholic is Greek for universal. Catholic at this time did not refer to the present Roman Catholic Church of today.

The schism between the Western Church, which came to be known as the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Church, which came to be known as the Greek Orthodox and then Eastern Orthodox Church occurred around 1054 A.D. but many say it occurred before that. The Western Church began to promulgate many rules and edicts while the Eastern Church was more spiritual and traditional. The Eastern Church refused to recognize the supremacy of the Pope.

Later on, the Protestant Reformation occurred for some of the same reasons that the split between the Western Church and the Eastern Church occurred centuries earlier.

In the first millennium of the Catholic Church, the canons of various ecumenical and local councils were supplemented with decretals of the popes; these were gathered together into collections such as the Liber Extra (1234), the Liber Sextus (1298) and the Clementines (1317).

Much of the jurisprudential style was adapted from the Roman Law Code of Justinian. As a result, Catholic ecclesiastical courts tend to follow the Roman Law style of continental Europe, featuring collegiate panels of judges and an investigative form of proceeding, called "inquisitorial", from the Latin "inquirere", to enquire. This was one of the reasons why the Greek/Eastern Orthodox Church split from the Roman/Western Catholic Church. The Greek Church, which was more spiritual and mystical as the ancient Christians were, felt that the Roman Church was too dogmatic and issued too many rules that weren't always based on the Christian faith.

Many churches have canon law but in the Roman Catholic Church, it is a fully developed legal system, with all the necessary elements: courts, lawyers, judges, a fully articulated legal code and principles of legal interpretation. The academic degrees in canon law are the J.C.B. (Juris Canonici Baccalaureatus, Bachelor of Canon Law, normally taken as a graduate degree), JCL (Juris Canonici Licentiatus, Licentiate of Canon Law) and the J.C.D. (Juris Canonici Doctor, Doctor of Canon Law). Because of its specialized nature, advanced degrees in civil law or theology are normal prerequisites for the study of canon law.

The Inquisitions were conducted for any violations of canon law and this caused much dismay, anger and discontent that built up over the years.

The Protestant Reformation movement began as an attempt to reform the Catholic Church. Many western Catholics were troubled by what they saw as false doctrines and malpractices within the Church, particularly involving the teaching and sale of indulgences. Another major contention was the practice of buying and selling church positions (simony) and what was seen at the time as considerable corruption within the Church's hierarchy. This corruption was seen by many at the time as systemic, even reaching the position of the Pope.

Martin Luther's spiritual predecessors included men such as John Wycliffe and Johannes Hus, who had attempted to reform the church along similar lines. The Reformation can be said to have begun in earnest on October 31, 1517, in Wittenberg, Saxony (in present-day Germany). There, Luther nailed his Ninety-Five Theses to the door of the All Saints' Church, which served as a notice board for university-related announcements. These were points for debate that criticized the Church and the Pope. The most controversial points centered on the practice of selling indulgences and the Church's policy on purgatory.

There were Protestants who claimed that the Roman Catholic Church was not a Christian church because it did not act as a Christian Church; rather, it acted more like an empire (the Roman Empire to be specific). Many claimed that the Roman Catholic Church was too imperial and not spiritual. They believed that there should be less focus on canon law and the authority of the priests, bishops and the Pope and more focus on the Bible, the Holy Scriptures and spirituality. There were Protestants who called for a return to orthodoxy and for a union with the Greek Orthodox Church of the East but this was not possible as the Greek Orthodox Church was now in the territory of the Ottoman Empire, which was Muslim.

This type of thinking could be why some today have claimed that Catholics today are not Christian but they are. All Christian churches (and other religions as well) have had problems with corruption but the Catholic Church received and still receives the most attention because it is so large. Any time you have an institution, religious or otherwise, that is so vast, you are bound to have issues of corruption and imperialism. Many accuse the U.S. of being an imperialist and corrupt power (not just Muslims by the way but many Europeans too).

But there is no doubt that the Roman Catholic Church is a Christian church and that Catholics are Christians. The Roman Catholic Church has been educating and providing health care to the poor around the world for centuries. This should not be forgotten.

[robertpolyglot]

Originally Posted by Verdor

There were Protestants who claimed that the Roman Catholic Church was not a Christian church because it did not act as a Christian Church; rather, it acted more like an empire (the Roman Empire to be specific). Many claimed that the Roman Catholic Church was too imperial and not spiritual. They believed that there should be less focus on canon law and the authority of the priests, bishops and the Pope and more focus on the Bible, the Holy Scriptures and spirituality. There were Protestants who called for a return to orthodoxy and for a union with the Greek Orthodox Church of the East but this was not possible as the Greek Orthodox Church was now in the territory of the Ottoman Empire, which was Muslim.

This type of thinking could be why some today have claimed that Catholics today are not Christian but they are. All Christian churches (and other religions as well) have had problems with corruption but the Catholic Church received and still receives the most attention because it is so large. Any time you have an institution, religious or otherwise, that is so vast, you are bound to have issues of corruption and imperialism. Many accuse the U.S. of being an imperialist and corrupt power (not just Muslims by the way but many Europeans too).

But there is no doubt that the Roman Catholic Church is a Christian church and that Catholics are Christians. The Roman Catholic Church has been educating and providing health care to the poor around the world for centuries. This should not be forgotten.

Thank you for the very thorough and enlightened post.

I see those same things in Catholicism, since it's my religion. I don't know how things are in other religions, since I am not a member.

In fact, one afternoon I watched "Primal Fear" and then didn't go to church that weekend. I was pretty disturbed, since those kinds of transgressions have happened in the Catholic church. However, the movie sensationalizes the exception and not the rule.

Great post.

[kdbrich]

Originally Posted by robertpolyglot

Seriously. I used to sit in a location at work not far from the desk of a Methodist minister's son. He liked to talk about Christianity. He seemed to hold it in a different light and make an off-handed comment about Catholics not being Christian.

I kept it to myself but thought it was so stupid that I couldn't get mad.

To me, any religion whose scriptural works are ONLY and BOTH the Old Testament and the New Testament, with the emphasis that your faith is put in practice largely through the New Testament, is a Christian religion. Period.

I'm not a religious expert, but I don't know what to make of religions that profess to be Christian but have OTHER books. I just don't know.

So, are Catholics Christians in your mind?

The catholic church disagrees with a lot of the basic fundamentals of Christianity. There are some big issues relating to sin/salvation with it.

[Boxcar Overkill]

Originally Posted by kdbrich

The catholic church disagrees with a lot of the basic fundamentals of Christianity. There are some big issues relating to sin/salvation with it.

Don't you mean the "catholic church disagrees with a lot of the basic fundamentals of protestantism?"

I don't see how one can credible make the claim that Catholics aren't Christians, given that they believe Jesus Christ was the messiah. Their bible is exactly the same as the standard protestant KJV bible used to be for the first few editions (until the protestants decided to drop a few books.)

[effie g-tad]

to op's statement:

it irks me when people shun what they do not even want to understand.