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Old 03-01-2011, 11:55 AM
 
1,116 posts, read 977,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AT9 View Post
As RoaminRed said, I'm not saying either of those things. All I'm saying about them is that niether is explainable by science (that we know of), so it does not belong in the natural or scientific category.



Yes that's what I believe atheism is about, but that's not my point. In regards to the title of this thread, I have decided that by the meaning of the word "atheist", an atheist can believe in ghosts. Because the meaing is simply a lack of belief in God. However, I think you will find that most leading atheists are complete naturalists, and a belief in something supernatural violates that whole belief. I'm just trying to make the point that if an atheist believes in one thing like ghosts, then that opens the door to the possibility of other supernatural things, like God.

If some one were to debate me about the existance of God, and they thought that God is not real becasue there is no testable evidence for Him, yet they believed in ghosts.... It would be an obvious weakness of self-contradiction in their argument. So to make my point clear, an atheist can believe in a ghost, but an atheist/naturalist cannot. That's all I'm getting at here.
Of course an atheist can believe in ghosts and the supernatural. Where did you get the idea that they couldn't? The only thing that you can know about an atheist is that they have no belief in gods, period. For example, don't most Buddhists (those who are atheist) also believe in reincarnation? Anyway, I'm an atheist because I have not found any convincing evidence to believe in one, nor had any kind of personal experience of one. That doesn't mean that I am not open to the possibility of a god existing! My uncle (who is atheist) believes in ghosts because he had a personal experience that led him to believe in them. He still has no belief in gods because he has not had any personal experience which has convinced him of their existence. You really need to stop equating atheists to naturalists because that is incorrect. Although it may be true in many cases, it is not a defining characteristic of atheism.
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Old 06-15-2011, 12:00 AM
 
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So tell me, why do you assume that ghosts are in a "spiritual" realm? And thus, force people like me to think that God is not far away. What if ghosts are simply energies that are left behind that have nothing to do with religious affiliations? Think about early humans that didn't have religion. Are they not allowed to have ghosts of themselves because they didn't believe in the current Christian "God"? What about ancient Egyptians or Mayans, etc.? I can only hope that ghosts can come from anywhere and anytime in the past, religion aside.
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Old 06-15-2011, 08:03 PM
 
Location: USA
870 posts, read 798,428 times
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Atheists will believe in Porky the Pig and Donald the Duck as long as Porky the Pig and Donald the Duck don't claim to be God.
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Old 06-15-2011, 10:37 PM
 
Location: Metromess
11,798 posts, read 21,127,721 times
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Radrook: This thread is directed toward atheists. What a gratuitous and juvenile statement you made.
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Old 06-15-2011, 11:18 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
13,856 posts, read 22,000,739 times
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Well I'll warn that I'm not an atheist here.

I know that some of the people who got into "Spiritualism" in the nineteenth century were agnostics. I'm not sure any were atheists, but it wouldn't shock me. The author James Tiptree Jr, according to biography, seemed to believe she would become a spirit after her murder-suicide (killed her aging husband then herself) and yet she was also clearly/proudly atheist.

Still I think the majority of atheists I see online reject all, or almost all, supernatural beliefs. I get the sense many people might even feel that's what atheism means considering the percent who say "I don't believe in God" is much higher than the percent who identify as atheist. (Although stigma to the word "atheist", and disdain for identifying by one's non-beliefs, are likely bigger factors in the disparity of "disbelief in God" with "Identifying as atheist.") If I've read things right even in Sweden the majority of people are not Metaphysical Naturalists who reject all paranormal or supernatural.
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Old 06-15-2011, 11:30 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
29,725 posts, read 30,263,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Well I'll warn that I'm not an atheist here.

I know that some of the people who got into "Spiritualism" in the nineteenth century were agnostics. I'm not sure any were atheists, but it wouldn't shock me. The author James Tiptree Jr, according to biography, seemed to believe she would become a spirit after her murder-suicide (killed her aging husband then herself) and yet she was also clearly/proudly atheist.

Still I think the majority of atheists I see online reject all, or almost all, supernatural beliefs. I get the sense many people might even feel that's what atheism means considering the percent who say "I don't believe in God" is much higher than the percent who identify as atheist. (Although stigma to the word "atheist", and disdain for identifying by one's non-beliefs, are likely bigger factors in the disparity of "disbelief in God" with "Identifying as atheist.") If I've read things right even in Sweden the majority of people are not Metaphysical Naturalists who reject all paranormal or supernatural.
I'm one of them...I believe in nature and real natural events, not ghosts, spirits, gods, or anything else imagined by people.
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Old 06-15-2011, 11:31 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
29,725 posts, read 30,263,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radrook View Post
Atheists will believe in Porky the Pig and Donald the Duck as long as Porky the Pig and Donald the Duck don't claim to be God.
Are you saying that Porky and Donald don't exist? I AM CRUSHED!
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Old 06-16-2011, 03:30 AM
 
570 posts, read 610,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steffan View Post
I was just wondering about what defines an athiest
If atheist believe in ghost then it is another contradictions added to the list !!!
I mean since they dont believe in supernatural powers or is it just god
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Old 06-16-2011, 03:32 AM
 
570 posts, read 610,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radrook View Post
Atheists will believe in Porky the Pig and Donald the Duck as long as Porky the Pig and Donald the Duck don't claim to be God.
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Old 06-16-2011, 05:44 AM
 
32,853 posts, read 8,194,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squall-lionheart View Post
If atheist believe in ghost then it is another contradictions added to the list !!!
I mean since they dont believe in supernatural powers or is it just god
A lot of people suppose that atheists do not believe in the supernatural as an article of Unfaith. Therefore they must dismiss unthnkingly anything coming under the heading of 'supernatural' and are presumably constantly having to keep up with the list of Things designated as 'supernatural' by science to make sure they are not caught out disbelieving in something that science has now proven.

Do I need to go any further? It should be obvious where the thinking had started out from the wrong assumption, but I probably do need to explain since not a few atheists (or agnostics) seem to be confused about this.

(1) atheism is not necessarily science - based, much less have atheists worked it all out logically and scientifically. But the logical and evidential basis of science is the rationale for atheism, if it is ever challenged (as it often is)

(2) science does not go in for belief or unbelief, though theists often suppose that it does, projecting their own way of thinking onto the way they suppose the Opposition thinks.

Science is basically agnostic (and what you don't know, you don't believe in) until evidence is forthcoming. If something formerly not believed in becomes evidentially supported then it becomes scientifically credible. If something previously believed in is found to be without evidential foundation, it should no longer be given credibility - unless one opts for 'I don't care what you say' kind of Faith.

If ghosts, Bigfoot, UFOs, astrology, ley -lines or acupuncture could adduce better evidence than a handful of speculative photos and doubtful anecdotes or statistically suspect counting of hits on cures or predictions while ignoring the misses, then science would accept these 'supernatural' events and begin devising theories to find out how they work.

Lightning, meteors, comets and even storms were at one time considered supernatural. We have got used to the scientific explanations. Ball - lighting is still on the edge as is dark matter and string theory, though the one has persuasively strong anecdotal support and the other two have mathematical theoretical support of the kind that led to the discovery of Neptune and Pluto.

The other stuff, despite the constant heaps of anecdotes, claims and fuzzy photos, still haven't made their case. Amongst those are ghosts, the soul, astrology and gods. Not because atheism is required by its list of commandments not to believe in them, but because they have not made a credible case according to the requirements of science.

This infuriates, the believers, especially if the belief has a long history, such as astrology and the support of famous scientists, such as astrology and a millions of believers, such as astrology and appears in credible (well, fairly) newspapers, such as astrology.

And yet astrology has no credible case, cannot work and can be shown to be a fraud. Atheists should not believe in it, not because it is on the 'supernatural' list but because its long - believed case does not stand up in the face of logical and evidential query. And that's also the justification (though not always the reason) why we don't believe in gods, either.
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