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Old 09-20-2015, 10:39 AM
 
32,516 posts, read 37,088,332 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
What, for instance, have Dew or Mystic indicated about how they may be influencing education, science or politics that alarms you?
I'm not sure what was meant by that. Personally I believe public schools should be religion-free, I want more hard-core science taught in schools, would be thrilled to see my tax dollars go into a greatly-expanded space program, and I don't want politicians deciding what I can do with my body based on their religious beliefs.

None of those are based on my religious beliefs.
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Old 09-20-2015, 12:19 PM
 
Location: USA
18,461 posts, read 9,106,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
ATTENTION everyone. Freak has just posted the rules for expressing your views in these fora. I assume he has been appointed as a Moderator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Are you saying that city-data's religion and spirituality forums are your public sphere? Since when do atheists consider religious forums their property?
Those are obvious straw-man arguments. No one is suggesting new forum rules or claiming ownership of these forums.

The suggestion that believers should distinguish between a statement of personal faith and a statement of fact appears to have touched a nerve.
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Old 09-20-2015, 12:29 PM
 
Location: USA
17,156 posts, read 11,349,101 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
I'm not sure what was meant by that. Personally I believe public schools should be religion-free, I want more hard-core science taught in schools, would be thrilled to see my tax dollars go into a greatly-expanded space program, and I don't want politicians deciding what I can do with my body based on their religious beliefs.

None of those are based on my religious beliefs.
It's easy to refute fundamentalist beliefs and the behavior those beliefs engender, so when disputing the belief that God exists, some atheist posters want to lump all those who profess a belief in God under that heading -- when it advances their argument. When it doesn't advance their argument, they then resort to insisting that any believer who isn't a fundamentalist is disingenuous. It's the constant moving of the goal posts that indicates to me that they're a bit desperate.
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Old 09-20-2015, 12:53 PM
 
Location: USA
17,156 posts, read 11,349,101 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Those are obvious straw-man arguments. No one is suggesting new forum rules or claiming ownership of these forums.

The suggestion that believers should distinguish between a statement of personal faith and a statement of fact appears to have touched a nerve.
You know better.

But here's a disclaimer for you, Freak... anything I say about God is my opinion. I feel perfectly justified in basing my conclusions about other people's God-claims on the following: beliefs about God or how God interacts with humanity that are self-contradictory or contradict observations of our reality are false, and any beliefs about God that are psychologically damaging or coercive are either false or, if true, will not sway me to ingratiate myself to such a god.

Some examples:

It is a fact to me that IF God is love as the bible claims, then many other things in the bible cannot also be true.

It is a fact to me that IF a god would condemn anyone to an eternity in torment as some Christians claim the bible declares, that god is a petty tyrant and I would not choose to exist with such a god for eternity, given the choice. If that god is also all-knowing, I'm not going to be able to fool that god into thinking I love it, so there's no point in pretending.

It is a fact to me that the bible contradicts itself, therefore the bible is not the inerrant, infallible "word of God".

It is a fact to me that the bible contains possible insights into the true nature of a God that would be worth getting to know more about on a personal level, if possible. It is also a fact to me that if some of the biblical authors had some insight into and experiences with God, there's no reason to think lots of other people throughout time can and do also have insights and experiences.

It is a fact to me that if there is no conscious entity or entities which are in some way responsible for our existence (i.e. God), it does not change the fact that I believe cultivating love is a worthy foundation on which to build my life. And the bible has insights into how to do that that I find worthwhile, whether it's all just metaphorical or whether there is actually a God who IS love.

Now, you and I have discussed pretty much all of that before, and I have always been clear to express in my posts that my conclusions about God are an aisi ("as I see it"), "from my perspective", etc. As a matter of fact, I often include "aisi" at the end of many of my posts, just to emphasize that. If, in all those discussions, you never paid attention to any of that, at least now you have no more excuse for implying any differently.

ETA: If you, or anyone, can show me how the above facts are somehow illogical or disingenuous, be my guest.

Last edited by Pleroo; 09-20-2015 at 01:04 PM..
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Old 09-20-2015, 01:19 PM
 
63,566 posts, read 39,855,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
ATTENTION everyone. Freak has just posted the rules for expressing your views in these fora. I assume he has been appointed as a Moderator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Those are obvious straw-man arguments. No one is suggesting new forum rules or claiming ownership of these forums.
The suggestion that believers should distinguish between a statement of personal faith and a statement of fact appears to have touched a nerve.
Perhaps you missed the smileys at the end of my post, Freak. You are really not the problem. It is those who accuse believers of dishonesty. Dishonesty is ENTIRELY dependent on the state of mind and personal knowledge of the speaker . . . NOT whatever the audience thinks they know or do not know or thinks can be proved or not. IF someone has the personal experiences and knowledge that make what they are saying TRUE to them, they are NOT being dishonest by claiming it . . . whether or not there is empirical proof satisfactory to second parties. It is trolling or baiting or otherwise provoking people to accuse them of dishonesty on any other basis. Honesty or dishonesty has nothing to do with what can or cannot be scientifically validated. It refers to the truthfulness of the speaker consistent with their personal knowledge and experiences, period.
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Old 09-21-2015, 01:15 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 6,354,824 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Are you saying that city-data's religion and spirituality forums are your public sphere?
I imagine if I was saying that, then that is what I would have said. But no, I distinguished the two quite clearly. Forums like this, and the actual public sphere of our houses of power, education and science.

And in terms of the former I pointing out a common practice on forums like this to espouse things as fact but when confronted on any level to retreat behind "Oh its only my opinion, I do not have to actually substantiate any of it".

And in terms of the latter I am distinguishing between personal beliefs, with which I have no problem, and what people do with those beliefs in the public sphere, with which I do have some problems. If someone indicates they are a believer in god I do not go around harassing them or following them home. I simply could not care less what they believe. But if they are using that belief to influence power or policy then the onus is entirely on them to substantiate their claims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
Incorrect. Sorry, but you seem to be making a lot of assumptions about me.
Nice of you to start the post with such an accurate one word description of what was about to follow. Because I made no assumptions about you at all. The point was about atheists in general and how they are not going to be disappointed, despite your claim, that you will prove nothing to them.Because few of them actually care what you believe in the privacy of your own home and head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
If you want me to prove or justify my beliefs to you....you're in for a long, long wait which will end in your being very frustrated.
Not a bit of it, I am quite cognizant of the inability of theists to substantiate their claims about the existence of a god in even the smallest way. So I hold out no expectation that you are suddenly going to be the first. And despite the pretense by many that this is because they do not want to bother.... I think it clear that it is merely because they actually can not do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
I believe beliefs are deeply personal.
As do I, and I have no issue at any level with people who believe that and act like that. Alas there is a significant enough group of theists on the planet who appear not to be happy until everyone else believes it too, or that think their personal beliefs should be relevant to public policy.

But all of this is tangential to the original point. You have run away on a tangent that has little to do with what I was questioning in the first place, which is the idea that people espousing things publicly as true, with absolutely no evidence that it actually is true on any level, are not being "honest" as you claimed.
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Old 09-21-2015, 08:53 AM
 
Location: USA
17,156 posts, read 11,349,101 times
Reputation: 2376
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I imagine if I was saying that, then that is what I would have said. But no, I distinguished the two quite clearly. Forums like this, and the actual public sphere of our houses of power, education and science.

And in terms of the former I pointing out a common practice on forums like this to espouse things as fact but when confronted on any level to retreat behind "Oh its only my opinion, I do not have to actually substantiate any of it".
They don't have to substantiate any of it, obviously. And based on your following remarks, I don't understand why you care whether they substantiate anything or not.


Quote:
And in terms of the latter I am distinguishing between personal beliefs, with which I have no problem, and what people do with those beliefs in the public sphere, with which I do have some problems. If someone indicates they are a believer in god I do not go around harassing them or following them home. I simply could not care less what they believe. But if they are using that belief to influence power or policy then the onus is entirely on them to substantiate their claims.
You are acknowledging that, other than fundamentalists who are trying to "influence power or policy" by insisting, "God said so", God-believers are not a threat to you. So, if they are of no concern to you, why do you spend time on the forum insisting that they substantiate their personal beliefs for you?
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Old 09-21-2015, 12:46 PM
 
32,516 posts, read 37,088,332 times
Reputation: 32578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post

But all of this is tangential to the original point. You have run away on a tangent that has little to do with what I was questioning in the first place, which is the idea that people espousing things publicly as true, with absolutely no evidence that it actually is true on any level, are not being "honest" as you claimed.
The shaky finger of disapproval. You'll have to line up behind the fundamentalists. They're unhappy with what I post too.
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Old 09-21-2015, 01:55 PM
 
7,801 posts, read 6,354,824 times
Reputation: 2988
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
So, if they are of no concern to you, why do you spend time on the forum insisting that they substantiate their personal beliefs for you?
To highlight the fact that they can not do so. This is a thread about fundamentalism and one of the defining characteristics of fundamentalism is that nothing will change your beliefs. We even have people like JeffBase who openly and happily declare this to be so. He once admitted that no evidence presented would ever shake his belief in god.

And by confronting Fundamentalism in any forum of discourse we find it in, we help define it for all to see. Both in our discourse AND in their response to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
The shaky finger of disapproval. You'll have to line up behind the fundamentalists. They're unhappy with what I post too.
I am certainly unaware of any definition of the word that would involve me lining up behind them or in the same line as them. Perhaps you have a definition of the word I do not operate with myself. But I can imagine how fundamentalists on this forum would take issue with a lot of what you write.

I should hasten to add that fundamentalism ALONE is not always a bad thing. It really depends on the form it takes and around what belief. For example the Jains as has been pointed out in the past. The MORE fundamentalist they become in their religion the LESS we have to worry about them. So while I see nothing inherently good about fundamentalism on any level, I would not rush to say it is _always_ a terrible thing either.
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