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I see a lot of discussion in regards to how non-believers can be morally just, law abiding, and upstanding citizens when they have no religious affiliation. Personally, this logic makes absolutely no sense to me because religious adherance does not affect ones actions or behaviors.
If it did, we would expect crime rates (adjusted to population numbers) in the US to be lower in relation to less religious coutries, namely, Canada, Japan, Norway, etc - countries which are overwhelmingly secular. We know however, that this is just not the case - the aforementioned countries are some of the safest, and have much lower numbers of violent and non-violent crime than does the US.
Nationally, we might expect to see the same trend - areas of the US in which religious adherance is more widespead, such as the southern United States. Again, we know this is not true, as the southern United States is just as prone to crime as is the rest of the nation.
Furthermore, there is no evidence to suggest that belief of religious philosophy has any affect on ones personal actions - humans, like other animals, have evolved over millions of years, and in most, a distinct sense of right and wrong is firmly imprinted within the psyche. Observing animal populations, there are actions which will get individuals thrown out of the community, ostracized, and even killed, if they break rules, or engage in behavior which could be detrimental to that particular community. And as far as I know, wild animals do not practice religion - clearly, religion and morality are two distinct entities.
So, as a non-believer, I find it personally insulting for religious individuals to suggest that people who reject the notion of a god are in some way morally "unjust". Especially considering the reality that religion has been responsible for more strife, death, suffering, ignorance, and atrocious injustices than free thought ever has.
If anything, it's been my experience that religion is a detrimental control mechanism, as it forces people do adhere to strict, often impossible expectations that is just not reasonable for most. As a result, the person may be more prone to engage in "sins", as what religion deems a "sin", is in fact normal, appropriate human behavior - behavior which has been going on for hundreds of thousands of years before humans developed religion.
With all of this said, my question to believers - specifically believers who judge non-believers as individuals with questionable morals - is why?
I see a lot of discussion in regards to how non-believers can be morally just, law abiding, and upstanding citizens when they have no religious affiliation. Personally, this logic makes absolutely no sense to me because religious adherance does not affect ones actions or behaviors.
If it did, we would expect crime rates (adjusted to population numbers) in the US to be lower in relation to less religious coutries, namely, Canada, Japan, Norway, etc - countries which are overwhelmingly secular. We know however, that this is just not the case - the aforementioned countries are some of the safest, and have much lower numbers of violent and non-violent crime than does the US.
Nationally, we might expect to see the same trend - areas of the US in which religious adherance is more widespead, such as the southern United States. Again, we know this is not true, as the southern United States is just as prone to crime as is the rest of the nation.
Furthermore, there is no evidence to suggest that belief of religious philosophy has any affect on ones personal actions - humans, like other animals, have evolved over millions of years, and in most, a distinct sense of right and wrong is firmly imprinted within the psyche.
So, as a non believer, I find it personally insulting for religious individuals to suggest that people who reject the notion of a god are in some way morally "unjust". Especially considering the reality that religion has been responsible for more strife, death, suffering, ignorance, and atrocious injustices than free thought ever has.
If anything, it's been my experience that religion is a detrimental control mechanism, as it forces people do adhere to strict, often impossible expectations that is just not reasonable for most. As a result, the person may be more prone to engage in "sins", as what religion deems a "sin", is in fact normal, appropriate human behavior - behavior which has been going on for hundreds of thousands of years before humans developed religion.
With all of this said, my question to believers - specifically believers who judge non-believers as individuals with questionable morals - is why?
Excellent post and I couldn't agree with you more! I am an atheist, and have never in my life been in trouble with the law. Several Christians I know have been in trouble, whether it be stealing, domestic violence, etc. Like someone else posted on another thread, 90+ percent of prisoners in this country claim to be Christians. Granted, a certain percentage probably turned to religion after being incarcerated, but still...
Personally, since I'm not a complete idiot, I do know the difference between right and wrong. It's been argued many times on this forum that it was still god who gives even us atheists morals. I don't believe that for one second. Just my 2 cents.
Look at it this way.....too many have been raised with the idea that they can sin, do all sorts of bad things, and it's alright because they can ask for forgiveness and then everything is OK. And God loves them anyway, no matter what they do. He hates the sin, but loves the sinner.
It's when the concept of somehow, it will turn out OK in the end, because the bible says that it will if you only believe, everything will be just fine. Being raised like that doesn't instill an idea of personal responsibilty to the community. Living a good, moral life is a practical, common sense way that will pay off in THIS life.
I see a lot of discussion in regards to how non-believers can be morally just, law abiding, and upstanding citizens when they have no religious affiliation. Personally, this logic makes absolutely no sense to me because religious adherance does not affect ones actions or behaviors.
If it did, we would expect crime rates (adjusted to population numbers) in the US to be lower in relation to less religious coutries, namely, Canada, Japan, Norway, etc - countries which are overwhelmingly secular. We know however, that this is just not the case - the aforementioned countries are some of the safest, and have much lower numbers of violent and non-violent crime than does the US.
Nationally, we might expect to see the same trend - areas of the US in which religious adherance is more widespead, such as the southern United States. Again, we know this is not true, as the southern United States is just as prone to crime as is the rest of the nation.
Furthermore, there is no evidence to suggest that belief of religious philosophy has any affect on ones personal actions - humans, like other animals, have evolved over millions of years, and in most, a distinct sense of right and wrong is firmly imprinted within the psyche. Observing animal populations, there are actions which will get individuals thrown out of the community, ostracized, and even killed, if they break rules, or engage in behavior which could be detrimental to that particular community. And as far as I know, wild animals do not practice religion - clearly, religion and morality are two distinct entities.
So, as a non-believer, I find it personally insulting for religious individuals to suggest that people who reject the notion of a god are in some way morally "unjust". Especially considering the reality that religion has been responsible for more strife, death, suffering, ignorance, and atrocious injustices than free thought ever has.
If anything, it's been my experience that religion is a detrimental control mechanism, as it forces people do adhere to strict, often impossible expectations that is just not reasonable for most. As a result, the person may be more prone to engage in "sins", as what religion deems a "sin", is in fact normal, appropriate human behavior - behavior which has been going on for hundreds of thousands of years before humans developed religion.
With all of this said, my question to believers - specifically believers who judge non-believers as individuals with questionable morals - is why?
The fact that (most) humans have a set of morals that they try to live by and do instinctively know right from wrong is why I believe we were created by God. In other words, the morals we possess as humans were given to us by God. So it's not that I, as a Christian, don't believe that you, as an unbeliever, aren't capable of having morals, I just beleive that you don't give credit to whom credit is due for the morals that you do possess. I also don't believe that our innate sense of right and wrong is something that could have resulted from the evolutionary process. And I disagree that animals have a distinct sense of right and wrong, if that's what you meant by the bolded statement above.
Last edited by Deb in VA; 01-28-2008 at 04:09 PM..
Reason: clarified point
None of what was written above is enough to convince me that there is a "god". There is absolutely no evidence to support that assertion.
I knew that what I wrote wouldn't be enough to convince you there is a God. I was only trying to explain my beliefs about where I think a persons inborn sense of right and wrong comes from...GOD.
Since morals change over time (human sacrifice was once considered not only moral but a necessity) I have trouble believing that they are god inspired. After all, the claim is that god never changes. Morals are developed by the current society to promote co-operation and fluidity in its people. Inspired by god or religion? No.
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I am an atheist, and have never in my life been in trouble with the law. Several Christians I know have been in trouble, whether it be stealing, domestic violence, etc. Like someone else posted on another thread, 90+ percent of prisoners in this country claim to be Christians. Granted, a certain percentage probably turned to religion after being incarcerated, but still... 
