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How is it distorted? Explain to me how you think it happened?
God exists outside of time; He just "is". He did not suddenly decide to "poof" us, as you say. He created us to love us. He gave us free will.
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There is a being who had never created anything, that had presumably been there forever, that decided one day, "Hey I'm bored, let's create some stuff." Then he proceeded to poof us and everything else into existence? Snapped his fingers and there we were. Then tried to mold into what he wanted us to be, then took off never to be seen again? Please explain to me how it is at all logical? A being that was not created himself, but has just always been there doing nothing poofed us into existence?
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Originally Posted by southernbored
What about creation can be observed? The answer is nothing. You are assuming it is real, and then making pieces fit. That is not observing it. If I believe in Odin, I can find "proof" or "observe" he is real, but that does not make it so. There are plenty of people who believe in Bigfoot. Does that make him real?
Nonsense. I answered this in an recent post.
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Originally Posted by southernbored
And what points you to creation, if not the Bible?
Personal experiences are actually the only thing we have. Any loser can write a book.
See? This loser wrote a book. It doesn't mean it doesn't completely suck.
If I have some "expert" telling me about a diet, and I try it, and gain 50 lb. I have the experiences to verify that this
Experience might not even be true universally. Someone else may try the diet and lose weight. But it's true for me. That's all that matters. All we can verify, though, is our own experiences, because everyone else could be lying.
To the best of my knowledge, nobody has experienced Bigfoot or Nessie. UFOs, however, that's real.
No such thing as luck. We make our own. I did make it out of this situation myself. This doesn't mean there wasn't a Savior involved.
They're just words. Words have no intrinsic meaning, only the value we give them.
Yes, personal experiences are all we have. Let me ask you something though... If your personal experiences tell you there is a creator, and mine tell me there isn't, who is right? We can't both be. So someone's personal experiences are wrong. That is what I mean. If it is observable, then it isn't a "personal" experience. You can't observe a creator that can't be observed. What you say proves a creator, I say proves evolution. We can't both be right.
You say there is not luck, that we make our own luck. That proves you don't need a savior.
No one has experienced Bigfoot or Nessie? A cursory glance online will tell you otherwise.
The main reason I believe in a creator is that the alternative is illogical. Other than that, the existence of goodness, love and beauty point to a creator. The size & scope of the universe point to a creator. I could go on, but this is nothing you haven't heard before.
What about the existence of evil and hate? You're right, I have heard it before, and it still makes as little sense as it did before. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean "god did it".
It is just as illogical to think we were poofed into existence by a being that exists outside of time. A being that you can not see or observe in any measurable way. I could just as easily say that we were poofed into existence by a giant, fire breathing cat. You can't prove me wrong, so I must be right.
Evil & hate go along with goodness & love. They define each other. One cannot exist without the other.
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Originally Posted by southernbored
You're right, I have heard it before, and it still makes as little sense as it did before. Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean "god did it".
By the same token, just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean God didn't do it.
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Originally Posted by southernbored
It is just as illogical to think we were poofed into existence by a being that exists outside of time. A being that you can not see or observe in any measurable way. I could just as easily say that we were poofed into existence by a giant, fire breathing cat. You can't prove me wrong, so I must be right.
I fail to see why a creator is illogical. Whether it's God or a god or a cat makes no difference at all. It's a creator. Do you seriously believe this all just happened, out of the blue? That takes some serious faith!
Because a Prime Mover sort of creator has all the same problems as an infinite universe, plus a whole lot more.
An infinite regress of causality is assumed to be impossible because of the infinite part. An uncaused first cause also must be infinite, leading to the same logical issue.
But in addition one has to question other things like, if the uncaused cause created everything, then what comprises this cause? It cannot be made of matter, or fields, or any material or observable substance or essence, because it is eternally pre-existent. And how can a thing that is comprised of some substance that is undetectable and unmeasurable impact the existing world?
I don't understand why this is a problem.
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Originally Posted by NoCapo
But there is a third option. One does not have to posit an infinite casual regress or an uncaused deity. The third option is that we do not correctly and completely understand the nature of causality and our reality. In fact much of modern physics points toward the conclusion that reality is not causal in the deterministic sense ( A causes B implies that if A then B) but rather reality is probabalistic. The evidence currently points to "empty space" being chock full of particles winking into and out of existence in a nondeterministic manner with no cause, only a statistical description of the behavior...
What this says to me is that reality is far more complex and, frankly, weird than one would guess by our simplistic attempts to make sense of it. To quote Hamlet:
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
-NoCapo
If/until we do understand it, creation remains a viable option, does it not?
Evil & hate go along with goodness & love. They define each other. One cannot exist without the other.
By the same token, just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean God didn't do it.
I fail to see why a creator is illogical. Whether it's God or a god or a cat makes no difference at all. It's a creator. Do you seriously believe this all just happened, out of the blue? That takes some serious faith!
I don't claim to know how it all happened. That's the difference between our views. To me, there is no reasonable explanation at this point. We will never know. I do know that a creator that can't be observed or proved has no more merit than the big bang.
I don't claim to know how it all happened. That's the difference between our views. To me, there is no reasonable explanation at this point. We will never know. I do know that a creator that can't be observed or proved has no more merit than the big bang.
How secure we are in our individual beliefs has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
You appear to be an agnostic, not an atheist. Actually, I'm not sure. Not that it really matters.
Goodness, love, beauty don't give you pause, as far as a possible creator? Do you lean towards a cosmic incident?
How secure we are in our individual beliefs has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
You appear to be an agnostic, not an atheist. Actually, I'm not sure. Not that it really matters.
Goodness, love, beauty don't give you pause, as far as a possible creator? Do you lean towards a cosmic incident?
How secure we are is relevant. If you are 100% that there is a creator, while someone else is 100% there isn't, someone is wrong. Neither will back from their position, and neither can prove their position. Personal beliefs are all they are.
I am indeed agnostic. I believed in God/Jesus in elementary school, but somewhere around age 9-10 I started asking tough questions that weren't answered to my satisfaction, and that belief faded away. Not believing in the Abrahamic God doesn't mean I leave no room for a possible creator. For me however, without some sort of proof or observable evidence, I can't believe it. It isn't something you can force yourself to believe. My mind tells me a creator isn't likely, at least not as we can conceive it.
I dont believe you need a creator for goodness, love, and beauty. The same way you don't need one to have morals.
I lean towards either a cosmic incident, or some sort of unknowable "higher order"". It's hard to voice what I believe! I know what I mean, but can't really describe it.
As an agnostic I concede there may be a hierarchy of intelligences (call it/them god if you like). But there's certainly no reason to believe that that intelligence gives a flying **** about us or even knows/ recalls that we're there. A bit like a human re an ant - and no more or less fickle (or special).
Yes, personal experiences are all we have. Let me ask you something though... If your personal experiences tell you there is a creator, and mine tell me there isn't, who is right? We can't both be. So someone's personal experiences are wrong. That is what I mean. If it is observable, then it isn't a "personal" experience. You can't observe a creator that can't be observed. What you say proves a creator, I say proves evolution. We can't both be right.
You say there is not luck, that we make our own luck. That proves you don't need a savior.
No one has experienced Bigfoot or Nessie? A cursory glance online will tell you otherwise.
Plenty of people have fake pictures of Nessie. Plenty of people want to believe it. This isn't the same as actually having an experience.
...The savior? Is you (hence the song). You see outside this person to be your savior. But when you realize everything is a reflection of you, you realize you have always had a savior, by believing in and loving yourself. This proves nothing.
By the way, I can explain the above. Both of our experiences gave us what we most wanted in this world. Experiences aren't true universally. But they are definitely true for each of us.
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I fail to see why a creator is illogical. Whether it's God or a god or a cat makes no difference at all. It's a creator. Do you seriously believe this all just happened, out of the blue? That takes some serious faith!
Exactly. Belief in creation ex nihilo actually takes more faith than the average Christian needs.
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If you are 100% that there is a creator, while someone else is 100% there isn't, someone is wrong.
Why would you say that? Isn't it possible they are both right (or wrong)? That there indeed is a creator, but the idea people have about a creator is dead wrong? That the creator is something completely different from how we view it?
Experiences aren't true universally. But they are true for the person.
People believe something is true for thousands of years while observing natural evidence concerning life and death. But looking at the lives and deaths of other creatures, surely they would have come up with a theory. And yet there are several. Not just the afterlife, but also reincarnation, rebirth, turning into a spirit, and just dying. If someone's right, why are there so many theories?
Simple answer: We have a choice what happens to us.
People believe God's a man, woman, spirit, all of existence (pantheism), no god but spirits, ultimate self, etc. Same deal. How can we all believe different things?
Simple answer: ___________________ (But I'm not gonna answer it, you are. How can all these be right? Thousands of years of people haven't lost their faith in gods/God. And almost as many people from other religions are essentially atheistic. How can they both be so certain? That implies that the way their life has added up proved what they believe to them. Answer that question, and you'll have the truth.)
This is what my experience has taught me.
Last edited by bulmabriefs144; 09-23-2015 at 07:40 PM..
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