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CPU makes a good point here...knowing God requires a person to be humble.
those who deny God are unwilling to make room for or allow for anything other than their own thoughts, particularly to admit there is something they may not know or understand, something that science can't prove or measure, but is very real and powerful nonetheless. Atheists also often see themselves as superior to those who believe in God. This too is an absence of being humble. I spent many decades around people who lived this way, and we see it a lot on these boards, the relentless ridicule, mocking, and derision from the lofty perch of condescending intellectual superiority.
perhaps other people can comment on this as well, why being humble is such a fundamental part of being in relationship with the Divine. it goes something like this. the more I can get out of the way (my ego, my boasting, my being full of myself) then the more God can shine into my life and my world. my observation is the atheist is entirely unwilling to let go of any of those because to him they are superior. he doesn't need or want anything else because he is convinced there is nothing else, that the physical world and his knowledge and understanding are all there is.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-13-2015 at 12:14 AM..
Atheists also often see themselves as superior to those who believe in God. This too is an absence of being humble. .
This is so often said even though the fact is totally the opposite.
We are humble enough to say "I don't know" while believers egotistically declare 100 % certainty.
My view of GOD is similar on a definitive basis.
Also, G-O-D is not a name, it is a title, like "hero", "boss", "leader", etc...that can be assigned to anything or anyone perceived as such. GOD is NOT what any individual or group demands GOD must be to be GOD. The definition and perception of GOD is unique to everyone, and no two perceive GOD exactly the same way. No persons definition or perception has any more or less merit than any other.
To Me: GOD is all the matter/energy that exists and has existed. It is as "Godly" as it gets.
Then the term becomes effectively meaningless, unless (as Mystic does) you postulate a cosmic intelligence (above and beyond dogs and dolphins doing organized pack -hunting) that exists apart from our individual minds.
It was because I tried to propse my idea that being humble was the way for life.
I'm all for being humble, but true humility doesn't lie in grovelling and telling ourselves how contemptible and loathesome we are. It lies in being willing to admit that we DON'T know and have much to learn.
Those who make plonking statements about a god they supposedly can know nothing about are in fact on the slippery slope to the worst pride of all - elevating the personal self to divine level.
CPU makes a good point here...knowing God requires a person to be humble.
those who deny God are unwilling to make room for or allow for anything other than their own thoughts, particularly to admit there is something they may not know or understand, something that science can't prove or measure, but is very real and powerful nonetheless. Atheists also often see themselves as superior to those who believe in God. This too is an absence of being humble. I spent many decades around people who lived this way, and we see it a lot on these boards, the relentless ridicule, mocking, and derision from the lofty perch of condescending intellectual superiority.
perhaps other people can comment on this as well, why being humble is such a fundamental part of being in relationship with the Divine. it goes something like this. the more I can get out of the way (my ego, my boasting, my being full of myself) then the more God can shine into my life and my world. my observation is the atheist is entirely unwilling to let go of any of those because to him they are superior. he doesn't need or want anything else because he is convinced there is nothing else, that the physical world and his knowledge and understanding are all there is.
I think this is a common misunderstand of atheism by theists.
It is theism that closes off anything other than 'their own thoughts' because the answer to everything if "God". There is no reason to look any further and indeed when those who could not help wanting to know how God worked his wonders found that they worked very well by themselves, tbeist thought tended to become rather distrustful of such investigations.
Thus we get the deprecating talk about science just saying that everything is just particles banging together and accusing them of closed mindedness- repeatedly. Just because they won't accept unsubstantiated Faith -claims as valid.
I already posted on the wearyingly frequent 'Wright Brothers' fallacy. This is failing to be logical or rational or indeed scientific. And that, I have to say is what appeals to feelings such as There must be something Greater or I feel God in me or I see god function in everyday life.
These are all irrational appeals to unknowns at best and feelings that equally good (or better) Non -God explanations. In a very real sense, Tzaph, this is relying on ones own thoughts rather than something (science, reason, logic or at least other possibilities) outside. When we point that out, we are seen as personally attaccking, being superior or condescending or arrogant. It is hard not to sound that way when our opponoents constantly try to construct argument using illogic, unreason and crap science or even science debunking. And we sound even more so when trying to point this out and meeting with a brick wall.
And then we get the accusation that we are the ones in the wrong because of some misconceived idea that requiring something more than appeal to unknowns is being closed -minded. Do you begin to see Tzaph, how you are doing yourself as well as us a grievous injustice?
Nobody denies there are unknowns but they are Unknown. To hi -jack them to prop up some kind of inner feeling is wrongheaded, illogical, irrational and unscientific. Amnd if one wants to do that, they can, but they cannot expect to be taken seriously thereafter and have no business to make any claims to logic, reason or science, since they have rejected it in favour of their own thoughts.
That is the true lack of humility, the true Ego, self and pride, The real closed -minded reliance on one's own thoughts and cannot allow for anything - any other suggestions, theories or proposals than the one they prefer.
And I have to say that I am far from impressed by claims of humility allowing God to shine through. Because all I see is someone taking their own thoughts, beliefs and opinions, inflating them to divine level and parading around a huge gas -balloon with their own image painted on it. The "Humble" claim doesn't wash at all with me.
so mordant (or any other atheist or agnostic) what is it for you? money? TV sports? luxury? big retirement fund and 401k? surfing the internet? smoking grass? intellectual preening? science? home ownership? membership in an organization? performance awards at work? wine collection? career advancement? those are just examples, what is the most compelling priority and focus for you? what gets most of your time and attention and is most important to you? that is for the purposes of this definition and discussion your god. what do you structure your time and life and priorities and attention around?
Why does your list have to consist entirely of shallow superficialities? I guess you can't conceive of finding actual meaning or significance apart from borrowing it from some deity.
Not that what meaning you make or purpose you find in life can't be grounded in the mundane. I spent yesterday writing an algorithm to make sense of a seemingly un-parseable data file and got a tremendous sense of accomplishment, meaning and purpose out of that, and as a bonus significantly exceeded customer expectations as I was able to extract two more data points out of it than they have been doing by hand.
Of course this wouldn't mean squat to most people but that is beside the point. It means a great deal to me.
You don't care about my stepson, nor should you, but I found much meaning in having a spontaneous conversation with him last night, about nothing in particular.
You don't care about my wife, nor should you, but I was delighted at the opportunity to step in and handle a task for her yesterday, which she was too exhausted to deal with at that time.
Real meaning comes from these shared interactions where your absence would be noticed. It is nothing more baroque than that, and is not dependent on invisible entities.
too bad we don't get to discuss that
the person who claims something does not exist, is unable to delight in or partake of those treasures, or even sit in on the conversation, because they are denying themselves access
No it is you who would deny access, simply because you don't like a belief position that does not accept the existence of gods, and want to exclude that from the conversation. But it is no less deserving of the time of day than any other viewpoint.
I guess you can't conceive of finding actual meaning or significance apart from borrowing it from some deity.
that is correct. for me there is no other meaning besides because for me i see and experience God in everything. That is what makes it precious. But it's preciousness and value is due to God's presence. Not my presence. whatever we substitute instead in our life, becomes god
which is the topic of this thread, define god in your own words = in your own life = what you deem most important
we agree those examples you show have value (work, marriage, children). but it is how we see them that assigns their value.
for the atheist it is "because the human is present"
for one in relationship with the Divine it is "because the Divine is present"
you state this very succinctly:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
Real meaning comes from these shared interactions where your absence would be noticed. It is nothing more baroque than that, and is not dependent on invisible entities.
ego = I am most important, I am at the center of this
humble = I am NOT most important, making room for something else that is more important than i am; God is most important
the satisfying solution to the work problem? thank you God, you are so smart, no way could i do that on my own
helping my dear spouse? thank you God for giving me this family and surrounding us with your love and caring, help me to always be patient and kind, even when i don't feel like it, because I can not do that on my own
a moment of connection with one of the kids? thank you God for always being there for us, just as this time with my son is precious, so too you take great delight in us Your children when we speak with You
for someone who seeks relationship and connection with the Divine, everything experienced in daily life exists solely to illuminate God's loving benificent presence in my life, the never ending grace, love, care and intelligence that seek only to fill, love, surround, and enfold me and my life.
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 10-13-2015 at 09:06 AM..
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I'm all for being humble, but true humility doesn't lie in grovelling and telling ourselves how contemptible and loathesome we are. It lies in being willing to admit that we DON'T know and have much to learn.
