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Old 11-05-2015, 11:56 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,282 posts, read 20,904,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
My pleasure, Cruithne. Glad you enjoyed it as much as me. Interesting to find out that the Mormons are closer to the Old Testament than the Christians on this.
That's because our theology is a restoration of what was commonly taught and believed prior to the Hellenization of Christianity. And remember, we Mormons are indeed, first and foremost, Christians.

Quote:
Katzpur is our resident Mormon so she might know but best as I recall from some missionaries visiting me a few decades ago Mormons believe God the Father is a man just like Jesus, has a wife and both of them mated and had innumerable children, among them Jesus and Lucifer who are brothers. Did I get that right, Katzpur?
*sigh*

I can understand where you're coming from, but I'd put it a little differently. Allow me...

Hebrews 12:9 states: "Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" We (Mormons) believe that God is our Father in Heaven -- the literal father of the spirits of all human beings who have ever lived or will yet live. We believe that, as His spirit offspring, we lived in His presence (and presumably in the presence of our Mother in Heaven) before coming to earth as mortal beings. In other words, our spirits -- the essence of who we are -- existed long before our birth. As a matter of fact, we would even go so far as to say that we believe that the "highly refined matter" from which our spirits were created is co-eternal with God. That is to say, we deny an ex nihilo creation.

As to how our spirits were created, we do not claim to know. Personally, I find the use of the word "mated" to be extremely misleading. "Mating," as humans use the term, involves intercourse, and may result in an egg being fertilized by a sperm. When this happens, an embryo starts to develop. Over a 9-month period, that embryo becomes known as a fetus and is eventually born as a human being. This process is required for a human being to become viable outside the womb. There would be no need for such a process in the creation of a spirit. There would be absolutely no need whatsoever for intercourse, a pregnancy or a birth, since a spirit has no flesh and bones and requires no sustenance to live, the way a fetus does. Furthermore, a spirit has no age the way a mortal person does. We don't start out as "baby spirits," grow into "toddler spirits," "child spirits," "teenage spirits" and so on.

So how did God and His Goddess companion create our spirits? The answer, as disappointing as it seems to be to everyone who would like to pin us down on this one, is that we just don't know.

As far as Jesus and Lucifer being brothers is concerned, here's what we believe...

As the spirit sons and daughters of God, we were all brothers and sisters to each other during our pre-mortal existence. Unique among all the sons of God was the one we know as Jesus Christ. Unlike the rest of us, He was with His Father in the beginning (before the spirits of any of the rest of us were created). Unlike us, He was perfect in every conceivable way and had all of the divine attributes and qualities His Father had. They shared a unity of will and purpose to such an extent that together, they were known (along with the Holy Ghost) both individually and collectively, as God. Finally, even though we were all the spirit offspring of our Father in Heaven, Jesus Christ was also His Father's "Only Begotten" Son. Under His Father's direction, Jesus Christ created our universe. He was chosen prior to His birth in Bethlehem to be the lamb who would be slain for our sins.

Another of the spirit sons of God was one named Lucifer. He was a proud and rebellious son who sought to exalt himself above his Father and who was cast out of Heaven for attempting to do so. When Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, he was disowned by his Father, and lost his right to ever again be known as a son of God (or a brother to the greatest of God's sons, Jesus Christ). If Jesus and Lucifer were sons of the same Father, they were spirit brothers, a fact which in no way reflects positively on Lucifer or negatively on our Savior.

Incidentally, this concept is not unique to Mormonism, either. It's just one of the many doctrines we believe was lost over time. In the third century, for instance, the Christian writer, Lactantius, wrote:

“Before creating the world, God produced a spirit like himself, replete with the virtues of the Father. Later He made another, in whom the mark of divine origin was erased, because this one was besmirched by the poison of jealousy and turned therefore from good to evil. He was jealous of his older brother who, remaining united with the Father, insured his affection unto himself. This being who from good became bad is called devil by the Greeks."

Last edited by Katzpur; 11-06-2015 at 12:25 AM..
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Old 11-06-2015, 04:06 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,560 posts, read 7,016,415 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio View Post
Why do you believe this little ditty is correct? Why are people just now figuring this out?
Anyone with a critical eye can see that the Old Testament is more a document indicating the growing awareness of the nature of God from very primitive concepts to the realization of Micah which is very close to what Jesus taught about God than it is a history of the interactions between an all-powerful God and the Hebrews. That the evidence was heavily redacted should not be surprising, and that evedence is more and more coming to light with the discoveries of archaeology. Religion has a strong tendency to cover up anomalies in its background.
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Old 11-06-2015, 05:00 AM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,153,023 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
There would be absolutely no need whatsoever for intercourse, a pregnancy or a birth, since a spirit has no flesh and bones and requires no sustenance to live, the way a fetus does. Furthermore, a spirit has no age the way a mortal person does. We don't start out as "baby spirits," grow into "toddler spirits," "child spirits," "teenage spirits" and so on.
Whaaaat? But... but... how do you explain this child spirit who clearly requires sustenance?




I kid, I kid...

But now that we're on the subject, have you ever pointed any curious would-be Mormons to the original Battlestar Galactica series? It has some interesting correspondences with Mormon theology, especially as Glen Larson (the creator) was a Mormon. There's an overview here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...star_Galactica.

I remember watching the show growing up, and noticing some definite Biblical themes - with the most obvious being the name of the commander: Adama, which could stand for either the first human of Genesis 2-3 or for the Hebrew word for "Humanity", adamah. It made sense, given the plot. Only recently did I read about the Mormon influence on the show.
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Old 11-06-2015, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,282 posts, read 20,904,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
But now that we're on the subject, have you ever pointed any curious would-be Mormons to the original Battlestar Galactica series? It has some interesting correspondences with Mormon theology, especially as Glen Larson (the creator) was a Mormon. There's an overview here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...star_Galactica.

I remember watching the show growing up, and noticing some definite Biblical themes - with the most obvious being the name of the commander: Adama, which could stand for either the first human of Genesis 2-3 or for the Hebrew word for "Humanity", adamah. It made sense, given the plot. Only recently did I read about the Mormon influence on the show.
I have to admit to having never watched Battlestar Galactica, so I really can't give you much input. I have heard people say what you just said, though.
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Old 11-06-2015, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Ohio
18,053 posts, read 13,270,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Anyone with a critical eye can see that the Old Testament is more a document indicating the growing awareness of the nature of God from very primitive concepts to the realization of Micah which is very close to what Jesus taught about God than it is a history of the interactions between an all-powerful God and the Hebrews. That the evidence was heavily redacted should not be surprising, and that evedence is more and more coming to light with the discoveries of archaeology. Religion has a strong tendency to cover up anomalies in its background.
Okay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
I don't know what your post looked like before it was edited, and I don't understand why it was modified - since we have been discussing various words from ancient languages.

If you were pointing out to Mircea that he was mistaken in thinking suf (sūp̱, סוּף) means "Sea" or is the name of the Sea god, then I agree with you. yam (yām, יַם) is the Biblical Hebrew word for "Sea", and also the name of the West Semitic sea god. So he may have confused the two.

There has been some interesting work by Bernard Batto claiming that the yām sūp̱ (יַם-סוּף) may be cosmological in nature, and bear the meaning "Sea of End" (or similar). He has some good philological and exegetical reasoning behind it, so much so that I've stopped using the translation "Sea of Reeds" in favor of this interpretation.
Yes, I got yam suf mixed up backwards. It is possible that sf is rendered sof which would be best rendered as Sea of Eternity. That would seem to comport more with the J version of Exodus than the P version of Exodus.
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Old 11-06-2015, 10:59 PM
 
Location: US
26,323 posts, read 13,949,854 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
. yam (yām, יַם) is the Biblical Hebrew word for "Sea", and also the name of the West Semitic sea god. So he may have confused the two.
A Sea god named "Sweet Potatoe"?...
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Old 11-07-2015, 01:31 AM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,153,023 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
A Sea god named "Sweet Potatoe"?...
Ha ha nice.

"All shall fear my tasty goodness!"


It is funny how some of these words get colored from our knowledge of other languages, huh? I still think it's funny, and also a great help to aid in memorization, in an instance like the Semitic root for "King" or "to rule/king": MLK and the initials of MLK Jr.

By the way, some of the creation and combat motifs found in some of the Psalms and elsewhere in the Bible may be reflections of God's combat with Yam, or the Chaos Monster - or at least older Semitic traditions being modified by Israelite scribes. In the Bible it is sometimes relegated to Egypt taking on this role as Chaos Monster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
Yes, I got yam suf mixed up backwards. It is possible that sf is rendered sof which would be best rendered as Sea of Eternity. That would seem to comport more with the J version of Exodus than the P version of Exodus.
That's what I figured.
You might like his participation in the recent Exodus conference, though his ideas certainly have had difficulty with other scholars unfortunately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLz_l3DIJyk
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Old 11-07-2015, 05:27 AM
 
Location: Nanaimo, Canada
1,808 posts, read 1,522,112 times
Reputation: 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel View Post
Christianity plagiarized and built upon Jewish texts and teachings - it is the year 2015 in the secular calendar
One minor correction: the Gregorian calendar is not secular. It was based on the calculations of a monk called Dionysius Exiguus, and introduced by Pope Gregory XIII in 1582 to correct a 'drift' caused by the lunar cycle and the procession of leap years in the precise timing of the spring equinox (and the celebration of Easter).

In fact, some argue that Dionysius calculated the date incorrectly by starting his calculations from an abitrary 'year zero' instead of the more logical 'year one', and that we should be nearing the end of 2016, instead of 2015.
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