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=Eusebius;41902782]Hello Dear Brother in Christ,
It is always a pleasure to fellowship over matters Biblical in nature.
The Greek word EKKLESIA stands for a group of people. There were several ecclesias in the New Testament. For instance there was the ecclesia of coppersmiths who made idols for people to sell to them. Acts 7:38 concerns the ecclesia in the wilderness in Moses' day.
Acts 19:39 speaks of the "legal ecclesia" which was a body of Roman lawyers (unbelievers).
In Acts 19:41 the scribe dismissed the ecclesia of idol worshippers who were bent on persecuting the believers.
There was also the Christian ecclesia in Jerusalem and the Christian ecclesia among the nations.
Now, Bibles often translate this word "ekklesia" as "church". But it was hardly a church of idol worshippers which was wanting to persecute the Christians.
The ecclesia of the nations has a completely different future allotment for the last two ages/eons to come than that of the ecclesia of the Circumcision. That allotment of the uncircumcision ecclesia/believers is to be among the heavens. The allotment of the Circumcision ecclesia believers during that same time is to be on the earth in Israel.
That being said, neither Peter nor any of the 12 apostles of Israel are going "to heaven." They will be resurrected and will be in Israel shepherding the 12 tribes of Israel. At the same time, we of the nations will be out among the heavens.
So Peter is not head of the ecclesia of the nations. Paul is. Paul is the apostle of the nations. The nations are **Un**circumcision. The Israelite believers under Peter are **Circumcision** believers. That is what the Bible calls them.
There, likewise, is nothing in the Bible which states that God cannot be the same God of two different ecclesias with two different constitutions. Dig?
Greetings in Christ Jesus our Lord Brother,
[quote]=Eusebius;41902782]Hello Dear Brother in Christ,
It is always a pleasure to fellowship over matters Biblical in nature.
[quote]The Greek word EKKLESIA stands for a group of people. There were several ecclesias in the New Testament. For instance there was the ecclesia of coppersmiths who made idols for people to sell to them. Acts 7:38 concerns the ecclesia in the wilderness in Moses' day[?QUOTE]
Indeed, But this particular EKKLESIA was and is both very special; and highly relevant. It concerns a very select [and unusual band of men] chosen by men to establish a new religion. A religion founded BY God the Father, ON God the Son BY God the Holy Spirit. This religion was meant to be the END of all other “valid” religions, religious practices and religious faiths. [Mt. 10:1-6; Mt 16:18-19; Jn. 17: 17-20; Mt. 28:16-20]
Why?
Because there is only One True God [the 1st Commandment]
Who can and does have just One true set of faith beliefs Mt. 28:16-20 & Eph. 4: 1-7]
And even All -powerful God understood as “All Good things Perfected,” can possibly and logically hold but a single truth on carefully defined issues.
And just as Yahweh choose just One Chosen “people” [Exo:6:7]; Christ; being the same One God followed His own OT tradition by desiring, and then establishing just one NT “chosen people” that He choose to term “My Church.” [Mt 16: 18] to encase and bind exactly what He wished to teach [John 17:17- 20 & Mt. 28:18-19] and would as seen in this John passage promise to give Himself as the personal warranty of Her Teaching ONLY the fullness of His truths. Which He has done for no other faith or church.
Eph. 2: 19-20 “Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God, Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone”
Quote:
Acts 19:39 speaks of the "legal ecclesia" which was a body of Roman lawyers (unbelievers).
In Acts 19:41 the scribe dismissed the ecclesia of idol worshippers who were bent on persecuting the believers. There was also the Christian ecclesia in Jerusalem and the Christian ecclesia among the nations.
These “ecclesia” were just a bit later [110 AD were to then & now be called “Catholics”] ….
CATHOLIC. “Its original meaning of "general" or "universal" has taken on a variety of applications in the course of Christian history. First used by St. Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 35-107) (Letter to the Smyrneans, 8, 2), it is now mainly used in five recognized senses: 1. the Catholic Church as distinct from Christian ecclesiastical bodies that do not recognize the papal primacy; 2. the Catholic faith as the belief of the universal body of the faithful, namely that which is believed "everywhere, always, and by all" (Vincentian Canon); 3. orthodoxy as distinguished from what is heretical or schismatical; 4. the undivided Church before the Eastern Schism of 1054; thereafter the Eastern Church has called itself orthodox, in contrast with those Christian bodies which did not accept the definitions of Ephesus and Chalcedon on the divinity of Christ.” …
[quote]Now, Bibles often translate this word "ekklesia" as "church". But it was hardly a church of idol worshippers which was wanting to persecute the Christians.
The ecclesia of the nations has a completely different future allotment for the last two ages/eons to come than that of the ecclesia of the Circumcision. That allotment of the uncircumcision ecclesia/believers is to be among the heavens. The allotment of the Circumcision ecclesia believers during that same time is to be on the earth in Israel.”
No my friend, not so:
Luke 19:41-43
“41] And when he drew near, seeing the city,[Jerusalem] he wept over it, saying: [42] If thou also hadst known, and that in this thy day, the things that are to thy peace; but now they are hidden from thy eyes. [43] For the days shall come upon thee, and thy enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and straiten thee on every side, [44] And beat thee flat to the ground, and thy children who are in thee: and they shall not leave in thee a stone upon a stone: because thou hast not known the time of thy visitation. [45] And entering into the temple, he began to cast out them that sold therein, and them that bought.” [Which was fulfilled in 70 AD]
Quote:
That being said, neither Peter nor any of the 12 apostles of Israel are going "to heaven." They will be resurrected and will be in Israel shepherding the 12 tribes of Israel. At the same time, we of the nations will be out among the heavens.
This too seems to not coincide with the Bible:
Matthew 24:31 “And he shall send his angels with a trumpet, and a great voice: and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them.”
Mark 13:27 “And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven”
Quote:
So Peter is not head of the ecclesia of the nations. Paul is. Paul is the apostle of the nations. The nations are **Un**circumcision. The Israelite believers under Peter are **Circumcision** believers. That is what the Bible calls them.
A bit of an unusual articulation; but OK
Quote:
There, likewise, is nothing in the Bible which states that God cannot be the same God of two different ecclesias with two different constitutions. Dig?
Sure there is: Taken in context these do. Pay particular attention to the SINGULAR tense Christ uses.
Mt. 10:1-6
Mt 16:15-19 especially verse 18
Mt. 28:16-20
God Bless you and thanks again Brother;
Patrick
=Katzpur;41904698]I'm sorry, I guess I neglected to answer the question in your OP concerning the Bible. Yes, I believe it is the word of God. (I do not, however, take much of it to be a literal account.)
I'm not going to address each of the passages from the Bible you mentioned, but I disagree with this statement, which appears to be the conclusion you have come to based upon what those passages say. I do believe that Christ's Apostles did everything within their power to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. And I believe they spread it accurately, teaching the doctrines He had taught them, baptizing those who had repented of their sins and believed in Christ, and organizing congregations of believers. It's what happened after the Apostles' deaths that I disagree with you on.
Oh, I don't question the fact that you have succession, Patrick. I just don't believe that succession to be legitimate. I don't believe any of the Popes have ever held the keys that Peter did. And you can quote all the scripture you want and never be able to prove that. I believe that the authority Christ gave His Apostles was lost after they died, that men subsequently changed the doctrines and organizational structure of the Church He had established and that the only way that Christ's Church could exist again would be if He personally were involved in its reestablishment.
Hi again
I'm been posting now for more than 4 hours and I'm getting tired [age 71], so I will try the short version; if after reading this doubts still persist; we can go from there. I'm truly grateful for your current believes relating to the Apostles.
Mt. 10:1-8
[1] And having called his twelve disciples together, he gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of diseases, and all manner of infirmities. [2] And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, [3] James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, [4] Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. [5] These twelve Jesus sent: commanding them, saying: Go ye not into the way of the Gentiles, and into the city of the Samaritans enter ye not. [6] But go ye rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. [7] And going, preach, saying: The kingdom of heaven is at hand. [8] Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils: freely have you received, freely give."
Now lets jump ahead to the end of Matthews Gospel which is supported by Mark 16:14-15
Mt. 28: 16-20
"[16] And the eleven [remaining] disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. [17] And seeing him they adored: but some doubted.[Pre-Pentecost] [18] And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU: and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world."
So dear friend, we see here mere moments before Christ Ascension back to heaven; a HUGE change in MANDATES given by Christ directly and exclusively to the Apostles and NOW by absolute necessity to their successors in order, as as the ONLY possible way this NEW Mandate could be fulfilled.
Note the following:
If Succession was not intended by Christ; logically he would have become Incarnate man; Died His Passion and then expected His One True Church to exist until the end times. IMPOSSIBLE!
Their would than be no need for His Resurrection
The New Covenant would have ended with the death of John 9-100 AD.
There would today be NO Christianity at all as Protestantism flows THROUGH the Catholic Church
I believe that the authority Christ gave His Apostles was lost after they died, that men subsequently changed the doctrines and organizational structure of the Church He had established and that the only way that Christ's Church could exist again would be if He personally were involved in its reestablishment.[/quote]
This position is Bionically untenable:
Mt. 16: 18-19
[18] "And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee [ ALL OF] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
Then we have this discourse found in John 17: 17-26
This takes place as Jesus in his human nature [always was and always will also at the same time be God] was praying on behalf of His Apostles to His Father:
[17] Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. [18] As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. [19] And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. [20] And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;
[21] That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. [22] And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one: [23] I in them, and thou in me; that they may be made perfect in one: and the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast also loved me. [24] Father, I will that where I am, they also whom thou hast given me may be with me; that they may see my glory which thou hast given me, because thou hast loved me before the creation of the world. [25] Just Father, the world hath not known thee; but I have known thee: and these have known that thou hast sent me. [26] And I have made known thy name to them, and will make it known; that the love wherewith thou hast loved me, may be in them, and I in them."
"Sanctify them in truth": God cannot not deny himself; so the teaching truth HAS TO BE!
"As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world": This means exactly what it say's. The Church is sent with some of God's OWN Powers and Authority as we saw evidence of in Mt, 10: 1-6; Mt. 16:18-19; John 6, and John 20:19-23.
"And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth." Here Jesus gives Himself as the Personal warranty of His Church ["MY CHURCH!" singular; Mt. 16:18] alone being enabled and protected to teach ONLY His Truth on all faith-to believed and Moral matters.
NO OTHER Faith, church or religion can claim and prove this except today Catholic Church
and the world may know that thou hast sent me
Once again we see Christ intention for His Faith and Church [singular] to be spread WORLD WIDE.
Indeed the term "Catholic" first used in 110 AD means UNIVERSAL
CATHOLIC. Its original meaning of "general" or "universal" has taken on a variety of applications in the course of Christian history. First used by St. Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 35-107) (Letter to the Smyrneans, 8, 2), it is now mainly used in five recognized senses: 1. the Catholic Church as distinct from Christian ecclesiastical bodies that do not recognize the papal primacy; 2. the Catholic faith as the belief of the universal body of the faithful, namely that which is believed "everywhere, always, and by all" (Vincentian Canon); 3. orthodoxy as distinguished from what is heretical or schismatical; 4. the undivided Church before the Eastern Schism of 1054; thereafter the Eastern Church has called itself orthodox, in contrast with those Christian bodies which did not accept the definitions of Ephesus and Chalcedon on the divinity of Christ.
So my friend I hope and pray that this gives you pause for prayerful reflection.
=Norne;41905558]There is only one true religion, and everybody is convinced it is the one he believes in. No, thanks, I'm staying out of this Abrahamic serpentarium.
Here's what I like about Catholicism:
Most high, all powerful, all good Lord!
All praise is Yours, all glory, all honor, and all blessing.
To You, alone, Most High, do they belong.
No mortal lips are worthy to pronounce Your name.
Be praised, my Lord, through all Your creatures,
especially through my lord Brother Sun,
who brings the day; and You give light through him.
And he is beautiful and radiant in all his splendor!
Of You, Most High, he bears the likeness.
Be praised, my Lord, through Sister Moon and the stars;
in the heavens You have made them bright, precious and beautiful.
Be praised, my Lord, through Brothers Wind and Air,
and clouds and storms, and all the weather,
through which You give Your creatures sustenance.
Be praised, my Lord, through Sister Water;
she is very useful, and humble, and precious, and pure.
Be praised, my Lord, through Brother Fire,
through whom You brighten the night.
He is beautiful and cheerful, and powerful and strong.
Be praised, my Lord, through our sister Mother Earth,
who feeds us and rules us,
and produces various fruits with colored flowers and herbs.
Be praised, my Lord, through those who forgive for love of You;
through those who endure sickness and trial.
Happy those who endure in peace,
for by You, Most High, they will be crowned.
Be praised, my Lord, through our sister Bodily Death,
from whose embrace no living person can escape.
Woe to those who die in mortal sin!
Happy those she finds doing Your most holy will.
The second death can do no harm to them.
Praise and bless my Lord, and give thanks,
and serve Him with great humility.
Saint Francis of Assisi
While everyone claims; ONLY the Catholic Church can prove the claim both historically and biblically
=TheDusty;41912167]Not a Catholic because I don't believe in God.
My views on the Bible? It's a collection of stories (some of them very poorly written) that does have some interesting insight on the human condition but by no means should be seen as telling stories that are literally true. Certainly interesting to read within historical context.
Is it because you know he exist but choose to deny it; or because you lack evidence of God [Which BTW] I can provide.
I'm been posting now for more than 4 hours and I'm getting tired [age 71], so I will try the short version; if after reading this doubts still persist; we can go from there. I'm truly grateful for your current believes relating to the Apostles.
Well, at 67, I'm not far behind you. In all honesty, Patrick, you're not going to convert me to Catholicism any more than I'm going to convert you to Mormonism. I appreciate the fact that you are strong in your faith, but so am I. I don't see how any of the posts you have posted really prove your position at all. In fact there is only one of your biblical citations that I even see the need to respond to, and that's this one:
Quote:
This position is Bionically untenable:
Mt. 16: 18-19
[18] "And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee [ ALL OF] the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.
Then we have this discourse found in John 17: 17-26
You obviously understand this to mean that nothing will prevail against the Catholic Church. The thing is, I don't believe Christ was talking about the Catholic Church at all. To begin with, to a first-century Jewish-Christian like Peter, the phrase "the gates of hell" would have meant nothing more than the entrance to the spirit world, or the realm where the dead awaited their judgment. I believe that Christ was saying nothing more than that even death would not prevail over His church, and that this gospel would reach even those who'd died. I don't think it has anything whatsoever to do with the Catholic Church being His Church and never ceasing to exist.
You seem like a nice person, and I have no desire to quibble with you over whether your Church is the true Church or not. I wish you well in your spiritual journey, and a good night's sleep.
My dear friend, I truly appreciate your post and point of view.
....
Christianity would not exist were it not for the Church founded by Christ
God Bless you,
Patrick
Not addressing the fundamental error of thinking that "the Church" is a structure or government. Understandable
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