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Old 12-03-2015, 07:28 AM
 
Location: Minnesota
2,526 posts, read 1,585,973 times
Reputation: 2765

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post

Of course you do. We would be fools if we didn't realize how unpleasant this all is for you believers. But you needn't worry. Nobody is pushing atheism down anyone's throat. It is simply an increasing requirement that the USA practice the constitutional principle of separation of church and state and stop the organized religions pushing their beliefs down the throats of society, and we atheists will go on suggesting to the rest that they don't have to put up with the religions pushing their beliefs down their throats.

No … The "Gideon" organization and their activities do not violate separation of Church and State …

The "New Atheist" push to separate Church from Society is an attempt to violate the "Free Exercise" clause of the First Amendment …

Yes, the "New Atheists" find it "unpleasant" that they are not allowed to establish "Atheism" as the Official Religion of The United States ...
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Old 12-03-2015, 07:30 AM
 
Location: Minnesota
2,526 posts, read 1,585,973 times
Reputation: 2765
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post

If Christians kept their religion private and stopped spouting off about it all the time they wouldn't have to be exposed to the scary fact that not everyone agrees with them.
There's the rub, yes … ???

The "New Atheists" want people of faith shoved in the closet as if "faith" is something dirty or shameful …

But, sorry … "Free Exercise" is protected by The First Amendment ...
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Old 12-03-2015, 07:37 AM
 
Location: Minnesota
2,526 posts, read 1,585,973 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1insider View Post
The prototypical bigot statement; "I have some very good friends who are (fill in the blank)."
Nice try …

But, no … "Atheists" themselves (properly) distinguish "weak" atheism from "strong" atheism, and I am not the one who made a NEW term, "New Atheism" …

see, e.g., Prof. Dr. Michael Ruse (a professed atheist), "Why I Think the New Atheists Are A Bloody Disaster" ...
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Old 12-03-2015, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Minnesota
2,526 posts, read 1,585,973 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
In other words, you want to see religious freedom stripped away so we should just keep our faith hidden behind closed doors.
Maybe people of faith could be required to go about with colored felt faith symbols pinned to their clothing … ???

… gold cross … green crescent moon … yellow star of david … etc. ...
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Old 12-03-2015, 07:41 AM
 
Location: Minnesota
2,526 posts, read 1,585,973 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post

The Gideons distribute Bibles in many ways besides in hotel room drawers. They pass them out on the streets to any who want them, for instance, usually near college campuses. I have no issue with this; I don't have to take one or engage with them and so far as I know they don't get in people's faces.

I am not aware of anyone with an issue even with the hotel room distribution, except in the uncommon case where the hotel is government operated.

This is hardly zealotry, nor is it limited to New Atheism. I'm sure opposition to a fuzzing of the church / state line existed prior to the year 2000, which is generally regarded as the start of the New Atheism movement.

It is telling that even though there is no opposition to what the Gideons are doing for the most part, even though the opposition is to a very particular and uncommon situation, that folks like you have to label it "zealotry" and imply that it's some sort of widespread persecution with the intent to destroy the entire work of the Gideons.

Again, though, this is all a tempest in a teapot. Distributing Bibles on college campuses will do more harm than good to the intended outcomes of the Gideons, as the greater the Bible literacy, the greater the unbelief, and the more education, the less ignorance and the less belief in invisible personal gods. Aside from which, the Bible has for some time been freely available online to anyone who is interested, and with the coming demise of printed books well underway, I don't even see a need for an organization like this anymore.
Well, then … Just …

*shrug*
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Old 12-03-2015, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Minnesota
2,526 posts, read 1,585,973 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southernbored View Post

Yea, people seem to think that keeping the government out of religion is somehow "pushing atheism down their throat". Yet those same people think that we should teach creationism in schools, allow governments to endorse religion, and that is in no way pushing their beliefs down our throats. I don't even think they can see how hypocritical this is.


"New Atheism" is simply a term people use for the ones who no longer sit on the sidelines and let religion run rampant. I may or may not be a "New Atheist" but I fight for the same types of things. I have no problem with anyone speaking about their beliefs, but the moment you start trying to proselytize to me, I have a problem. This is less about their beliefs, and more about me. If you want to have a conversation, that is great. If you simply want to preach at me, not so great.


Now don't get me wrong here, I am not talking about people who are simply passionate about what they believe. There is a difference between being passionate and being preachy, if that makes sense.
The USA is a very religiously diverse and vigorous society not least because the First Amendment wisely forbids establishment of ANY Official State Religion (including "A-Theism") and at the same time guarantees "free exercise" of religion …

So, yes, in America even zealous "atheists" are allowed to "proselytize" and even be "preachy" ...
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Old 12-03-2015, 07:49 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,891,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teilhard View Post
No … The "Gideon" organization and their activities do not violate separation of Church and State …

The "New Atheist" push to separate Church from Society is an attempt to violate the "Free Exercise" clause of the First Amendment …

Yes, the "New Atheists" find it "unpleasant" that they are not allowed to establish "Atheism" as the Official Religion of The United States ...
Don't like the so-called New Atheists? Tough.

We are not going to be kept in the closet any longer. We don't give a rat's behind if you want to practice your religion in your home, church, synagogue, mosque, or temple. You want to practice it in the public sphere or if any tax dollars are involved? You going to hear from us loud and proud.

You also better get used to the fact that the US Supreme Court has ruled since 1947 that our point of view is the valid one. You might want to read up on that.
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Old 12-03-2015, 07:53 AM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,891,294 times
Reputation: 4560
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40 View Post
In other words, you want to see religious freedom stripped away so we should just keep our faith hidden behind closed doors.
You could have all the religious freedom you want. If you were to invite me for dinner at your house, and you and your family said grace before dinner, I would quietly sit there and say nothing. It is your house, your home, and as a guest I would be respectful of that.

You want to do the same thing at a public dinner? Different issue.

As long as you keep it in your home, church, synagogue, mosque or temple. If any tax dollars are involved, you're going to hear all sorts of issues about it.
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Old 12-03-2015, 07:54 AM
 
8,005 posts, read 7,166,732 times
Reputation: 18165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teilhard View Post
No … The "Gideon" organization and their activities do not violate separation of Church and State …

The "New Atheist" push to separate Church from Society is an attempt to violate the "Free Exercise" clause of the First Amendment …

Yes, the "New Atheists" find it "unpleasant" that they are not allowed to establish "Atheism" as the Official Religion of The United States ...
That statement above is obviously rubbish but I would certainly be on board for no official religion of the US instead of Christianity creeping into everything..
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Old 12-03-2015, 07:58 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,805 posts, read 13,353,303 times
Reputation: 9812
Quote:
Originally Posted by cupper3 View Post
You could have all the religious freedom you want. If you were to invite me for dinner at your house, and you and your family said grace before dinner, I would quietly sit there and say nothing. It is your house, your home, and as a guest I would be respectful of that.

You want to do the same thing at a public dinner? Different issue.

As long as you keep it in your home, church, synagogue, mosque or temple. If any tax dollars are involved, you're going to hear all sorts of issues about it.
Actually they are not limited to home or house of worship, simply restricted from public property. There is nothing to prevent them from advertising just like any other group, within the bounds of advertising law just like any other advertiser. There is nothing legally preventing them from "sharing" their faith with random others, putting godly bumper stickers on their cars, making and distributing Christian movies or TV shoes, or, as the Gideons are also wont to do, distributing free Bibles on the streets.

The ONLY thing prohibited is promoting their faith in the public square, and then only if it's to the exclusion of other faiths. That this one little thing bugs them tells me that what they really object to is the loss of structural and overt, unopposed hegemony and political power.
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