Atheist's New Target - Remove the Gideon Bible! (families, hell, America)
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Incorrect. A government employee does not have the power to authorize support for one religion and not all others. You're simply wrong.
Wrong. You can be sure the school board authorized the operation of the cafeteria. You can be sure that if the school board authorized support for one religion and not all others that it is violation.
Even though you don't like it.
Yes there is. You simply refused to acknowledge the truth.
Covering you butt in case you're wrong with the next rationalization you would put forward to excuse the offensive Dominionist actions you would see excused?
I doubt that. I think it more likely that they just pretend to be ignorant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU
There is no law that states that the state can distribute Bibles.
You seem to be unaware about how government works. Governments can only do things that they are chartered to do. A school administrator cannot open up a sandwich shop in the music classroom.
What I find amusing is how the people who try to use the "there is no law against states distribution Bibles" nonsense are often the very same people who argue that there is no law saying that the government can collect income tax - changing their argument to the contradictory argument depending on whether they want government to do something or not want government to do it.
So in order for the government to do something they have to establish a law, and government cannot establish a law that supports one religion and not all others.
I went to public schools K through 12 with no beginning prayers or required religion classes or chapel services … So your argument is not with ME …
I have my first degree in biology and have done some grad study in paleontology and have been a member of the biology section of the American Association for the Advancement of Science for 40+ years … So if you want to start a science-based p*ssing contest here, you won't win that one …
I actively campaigned AGAINST the attempt here in Minnesota to ban GLBT marriage in 2012 and I applaud our legislature and governor for having approved GLBT marriage in 2013 …
You gripe is with a straw man of your own imagination, not with me ...
I was using "y'all" in the collective sense of all Christian intrusion into secular life the same way you were using the collective "New A-Theist". I'm down for a science match. Paleoanthropology, my brother.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,915,464 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teilhard
Anyone who wants to, any manager of a "state run lodging," is FREE to decline to accept gift editions of "Gideon Bibles" …
There is NO public funding and there is NO legislation requiring or even suggesting or encouraging any such practice … It is simply harmless custom that reflect American culture …
Further, there is NO ONE requiring that you submit to be "preached to" ….
I guess you missed the part that staff being paid by taxpayers is putting those books into drawers.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,915,464 times
Reputation: 4561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teilhard
No … Accepting placement of Gideon Bibles in motel rooms is not an "endorsement" of the Church … It is an acceptance of the cultural fact that Americans are a majority religious people and that the Church is the majority faith in America …
Its a longstanding cultural fact ...
And illegal . Live with it, or do you prefer to do things that are illegal?
And illegal . Live with it, or do you prefer to do things that are illegal?
No it isn't.
We even have had the government declare the Bible "the word of God" and sign into law "The Year Of The Bible".
The vote was unanimous, House & Senate....and nobody has ever said squat about it.
Actually they are not limited to home or house of worship, simply restricted from public property. There is nothing to prevent them from advertising just like any other group, within the bounds of advertising law just like any other advertiser. There is nothing legally preventing them from "sharing" their faith with random others, putting godly bumper stickers on their cars, making and distributing Christian movies or TV shows, or, as the Gideons are also wont to do, distributing free Bibles on the streets.
The ONLY thing prohibited is promoting their faith in the public square, and then only if it's to the exclusion of other faiths. That this one little thing bugs them tells me that what they really object to is the loss of structural and overt, unopposed hegemony and political power.
It is the "to the exlusion of other faiths" that underlies the only legitimate complaint regarding the Gideons. There is NO establishment clause violation whatsoever. It is merely an equal access issue. Pretending it is an establishment clause issue simply plays to the anti-God zealots who want Atheism as the exclusive religion of our government, hence their attempts to remove "In God we Trust," etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teilhard
No … The "Gideon" organization and their activities do not violate separation of Church and State …
The "New Atheist" push to separate Church from Society is an attempt to violate the "Free Exercise" clause of the First Amendment …
Yes, the "New Atheists" find it "unpleasant" that they are not allowed to establish "Atheism" as the Official Religion of The United States ...
Amen!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
My championing of the acknowledgment of God by government has nothing to do with any specific religion. It is simply that an acknowledgment of God is NOT an establishment of religion and does NOT promote any specific religion. By pretending that the Bibles are an establishment clause issue you dilute the prohibition by misapplying it too broadly. It aids and abets those who actually DO seek to eradicate God from the public square.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC
Sure it is. Where else do you find god(s) but in the mythologies of various religious traditions?
You insist on pretending that YOUR preference for "We do not know" as YOUR God that is the Source of everything in existence does NOT mean that there is no God except in religions. Your attempt at guilt by association is an epic fail!
Quote:
Or talking an alternate approach and agreeing with your opinion, if talking about god(s) isn't a religious expression then there should be no 1st amendment protections for practicing your faith - after all the 1st amendment only protects religious freedom and talking about god(s) isn't a religious expression in your view. Funny how accepting some of your baseless assertions about the law tends to turn reality on its head. I guess that's what happens when you just make it up as you go along rather than actually researching the legal history of the topic you're discussing.
You have a strange understanding of the First Amendment if you think it only covers religious speech! The existence of God is a separate issue from ANY religions which purport to explain God. Since by any stretch of language, the Source of everything in existence and any and all laws governing that existence would be God, our ignorance about it notwithstanding. That makes the existence of God a given, so acknowledging that existence violates NOTHING. But it says nothing about the validity of ANY of the myriad religious explanations of God and that is why there can be no establishment of a state explanation (religion).
I was using "y'all" in the collective sense of all Christian intrusion into secular life the same way you were using the collective "New A-Theist". I'm down for a science match. Paleoanthropology, my brother.
Go for it … (One of my minor degrees was Anthropology, though specializing in North America … But one of my interests in biology/paleontology was and remains evolution …)
And illegal . Live with it, or do you prefer to do things that are illegal?
I do not believe that "Gideons'" placement of Bibles in motel rooms is "illegal" …
You are making that claim, not I ...
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The existence of God is a separate issue from ANY religions which purport to explain God. Since by any stretch of language, the Source of everything in existence and any and all laws governing that existence would be God, our ignorance about it notwithstanding. That makes the existence of God a given, so acknowledging that existence violates NOTHING. But it says nothing about the validity of ANY of the myriad religious explanations of God and that is why there can be no establishment of a state explanation (religion).
