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Thanks. That is exactly what I meant by supply. I think the only way to get rid of these groups is to starve them off the supply. Get the people out who are being abused and the narcissists will have no one to adore them.
Have you read any Steve Hassan, Margaret Singer, or Robert Lifton? The TID seems to be transient. I have a brother that is quite a bit younger than me and he wanted to play football, which is against the rules in my mom's religion. I tried to talk to her on my brother's behalf suggesting that the tight control she kept on my other brother and I actually pushed us away from the religion. About 2 sentences in her face went blank and her eyes got really dark. Her voice was low and she said "don't tell me how to raise my children". She only had one child left at home. I sensed she had given that speech before and felt attacked. That is one of the reasons it is so hard to get someone out. As soon as they sense that their core beliefs are about to be confronted their cult programming goes up and traps them in. It's fascinating to me having been on the inside of that trap.
I've seen what Religion can do to people. In some cases, it saved them from immanent doom. Whether it was drugs abuse, dangerous lifestyle, broken life's, broken relationships, broken homes or just NOT having A life purpose. In these cases, they are better off than before their "enlightenment." In this sense, the Church has served its greater purpose and saved a lost soul from perhaps a tragic end. It gave them a purpose to live and an "explanation" for the trials and calamities of life....the fallen state of man.
However, for those who stay involved in an organized Church or Theocracy system, ultimately are given into a Dark Mind Control system and unwittingly give up their Personal Identity of who they are and what values they ultimately have. I've witnessed this personally and seen followers led to the point of suicide (some were successful) abandoned by empty promises and a lost hope in a coming Messiah.
TAKE HEED of where you let your Mind go...!
Religious Zealots and "Transpersonal Identity Disorder!"
Transpesonal Id is a Cognitive dissonance defense mechanism borne by people who have no personal identity, individual persona or self image. They are lost in a Ecclesiastical story that hinges on a Magical escape from the Reality of this world. They see themselves like characters caught in a science-fiction fable...Only their role is "an agent" for the kingdom (whether it be for Christ, Muhammad or a Future Savior).
Driven by the certainty that they are privy to sacred truths and are therefore morally obligated to do everything in their power -- no matter how many people may suffer -- to act upon these truths ... a tendency to dehumanize and even demonize those who oppose them.
QUOTE: "Although this disorder can be called “religious fanaticism,” those afflicted need not appear wild-eyed or deranged; quite the contrary, they can present themselves as thoughtful and responsible people inspired by the loftiest of ideals. Nevertheless, their absolute confidence in themselves and their cause, their willingness to create massive destruction for a supposed higher good, and their dehumanization of their opponents, all indicate the imbalance of a personality disorder."
The dynamics that underlie religious fanaticism have been recognized by many psychological thinkers. For example, C. G. Jung (1966) wrote of “positive inflation,” Alice Miller (1981) described grandiosity used as a defense against depression, Gary Rosenthal (1987) utilized the phrase “inflated by the spirit,” and Greg Bogart (1995) warned against “the shadow of vocation.” More recently Robert Jay Lifton (2000) has described this type of personality structure in his concept of “functional megalomania” that fuels what he calls “the new global terrorism.”
THIS PHENOMENA is not exclusive to any one Religion but are a common characteristic to the Big 3 (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam).
Ask yourself: "Is My Belief system based on facts that I CAN PROVE (because that's all that matters) or am i Just being Socialized by a Group who ultimately want to control my Mind?"
IF you look closely within your Church you will find Narcissistic Controllers who Lead a group of sheep. And how do they do it? ANSWER: By waiving a Black Book at you and proclaiming "...YOU have been "chosen" and your Identity and life are in this book." (don't you feel special now?)
A Look at Transpersonal Identity Disorder by. John Firman and Ann Gila.
You can try to analyze it any way you want that feeds your obvious hate, bias, and prejudice.
These traditions, concepts, culture, and ways go back thousands of years...but you are gonna tell them how messed up they are, referring to them as "mofo's" and the "dumbest".
You arrogantly suggest that you know so much better...with all your criticism, insulting, and mocking.
Did you ever see someone go to the aid of another being pushed around by someone close to them? Even though you think you are going to help...it is most likely they will attack YOU for interjecting yourself into something you are not part of.
It is human nature it latch on and lash put when confronted and challenged about things people are strongly passionate about. So, what do people think they are accomplishing by reviling and mocking others that have ways that differ from theirs?
I also notice they are all big and brave on the internet and with a huge buffer of separation. But I don't see any of them with the guts to go directly to these people and say what they say.
If you think you know so well what is good for them...go right to them and say to their face what you say here.
All you are accomplishing by what you are doing is creating more of what you complain about and steeling their resolve. MOF...there are lots of places in this world, that if you said what you say here...it would be the last thing you'd ever say. That's how negatively it is viewed.
All you are accomplishing by what you are doing is creating more of what you complain about and steeling their resolve.
That is so true. I don't think people understand that. This can happen to anyone, there doesn't have to be something wrong with you to get taken in. Idealistic people might be a bit more susceptible to indoctrination and loyal people are harder to get out. The more they feel attacked the more their mind shuts down. It's like someone being stuck in an abusive marriage. You don't get them out by attacking their partner, that only makes them defend the abuser more. You get them out by empowering them to think critically for themselves.
That is so true. I don't think people understand that. This can happen to anyone, there doesn't have to be something wrong with you to get taken in. Idealistic people might be a bit more susceptible to indoctrination and loyal people are harder to get out. The more they feel attacked the more their mind shuts down. It's like someone being stuck in an abusive marriage. You don't get them out by attacking their partner, that only makes them defend the abuser more. You get them out by empowering them to think critically for themselves.
I'm very glad you found the key to unlock your spirit's cell.
I hope the many others, similarly trapped, find theirs.
Driven by the certainty that they are privy to sacred truths and are therefore morally obligated to do everything in their power -- no matter how many people may suffer -- to act upon these truths ... a tendency to dehumanize and even demonize those who oppose them.
I can confirm having been raised in a mind control group myself. That is what they do, divide people right down the middle as "us" and "them", "righteous/wicked". The whole point is to destroy the individual and replace it with a new cult persona. The person will put the group above everything else, even their lives or that of their children .The person can return to their pre cult self if they leave. 2nd generation cult members have a harder time because we have no pre cult self. Especially since the primary goal of the parent is to inculcate (literal translation means trample) the views of the group into the child from birth on. I remember after I left trying to build a personality out of traits I liked from other people. They did convince me they were right, they just never convinced me I was one of them. I don't do elitist very well.
Same here.
In the last 15 years I moved from better dead then red to being accused of not being a real christian, atheist, capitalist, liberal, or American. I am a slow leaner. Talk about brainwashing in these groups.
The only rule I kind of treat literal is "treat your enemy like you do your best friend." Especially when it comes to killing time. To be truthful, and it took me a long time realize this, it aint me that's crazy. well, A lot of the timez that is ...
You can try to analyze it any way you want that feeds your obvious hate, bias, and prejudice.
These traditions, concepts, culture, and ways go back thousands of years...but you are gonna tell them how messed up they are, referring to them as "mofo's" and the "dumbest".
You arrogantly suggest that you know so much better...with all your criticism, insulting, and mocking.
Did you ever see someone go to the aid of another being pushed around by someone close to them? Even though you think you are going to help...it is most likely they will attack YOU for interjecting yourself into something you are not part of.
It is human nature it latch on and lash put when confronted and challenged about things people are strongly passionate about. So, what do people think they are accomplishing by reviling and mocking others that have ways that differ from theirs?
I also notice they are all big and brave on the internet and with a huge buffer of separation. But I don't see any of them with the guts to go directly to these people and say what they say.
If you think you know so well what is good for them...go right to them and say to their face what you say here.
All you are accomplishing by what you are doing is creating more of what you complain about and steeling their resolve. MOF...there are lots of places in this world, that if you said what you say here...it would be the last thing you'd ever say. That's how negatively it is viewed.
You can try to analyze it any way you want that feeds your obvious hate, bias, and prejudice.
These traditions, concepts, culture, and ways go back thousands of years...but you are gonna tell them how messed up they are, referring to them as "mofo's" and the "dumbest".
You arrogantly suggest that you know so much better...with all your criticism, insulting, and mocking.
Did you ever see someone go to the aid of another being pushed around by someone close to them? Even though you think you are going to help...it is most likely they will attack YOU for interjecting yourself into something you are not part of.
It is human nature it latch on and lash put when confronted and challenged about things people are strongly passionate about. So, what do people think they are accomplishing by reviling and mocking others that have ways that differ from theirs?
I also notice they are all big and brave on the internet and with a huge buffer of separation. But I don't see any of them with the guts to go directly to these people and say what they say.
If you think you know so well what is good for them...go right to them and say to their face what you say here.
All you are accomplishing by what you are doing is creating more of what you complain about and steeling their resolve. MOF...there are lots of places in this world, that if you said what you say here...it would be the last thing you'd ever say. That's how negatively it is viewed.
Wait a minute Sir...!
Don't you live by the commandment of Christ who says "Judge not least you be Judged?"
???
Have you repented of your Sin of Judgement?
Seems like a judgmental Fellow to me.
FANATIC: What can we do about this Lord?
GOD: I will send plagues to his home and family. I will smite them with Flies and Locus.
FANATIC: oH Goodie. I love when you do that!
GOD: Yes, me too!
You can try to analyze it any way you want that feeds your obvious hate, bias, and prejudice.
These traditions, concepts, culture, and ways go back thousands of years...but you are gonna tell them how messed up they are, referring to them as "mofo's" and the "dumbest".
You arrogantly suggest that you know so much better...with all your criticism, insulting, and mocking.
Did you ever see someone go to the aid of another being pushed around by someone close to them? Even though you think you are going to help...it is most likely they will attack YOU for interjecting yourself into something you are not part of.
It is human nature it latch on and lash put when confronted and challenged about things people are strongly passionate about. So, what do people think they are accomplishing by reviling and mocking others that have ways that differ from theirs?
I also notice they are all big and brave on the internet and with a huge buffer of separation. But I don't see any of them with the guts to go directly to these people and say what they say.
If you think you know so well what is good for them...go right to them and say to their face what you say here.
All you are accomplishing by what you are doing is creating more of what you complain about and steeling their resolve. MOF...there are lots of places in this world, that if you said what you say here...it would be the last thing you'd ever say. That's how negatively it is viewed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balkins
Perhaps you are Right (sigh)
GldnRule could well be right with his psychoanalysis and ad-hominem against you, but none of that would counter any of the actual good points you sprinkled in the O.P. about religious fanaticism and cultish behavior.
The traditions, concepts, and cultures of human sacrifice go back thousands of year, doesn't mean we didn't collectively stop. Remember animal scarifies? Subjugation of women? All of them strong traditions that we are all currently against and view as sick and mentally unstable.
Balkins, Do you have "obvious hate" for religious fanatics? GldnRule, do you love systems that create religious fanatics?
Most people who are close to other people are often more privy to the information related to altercations, then would be obsequious vigilantes that often just get in the way of things getting better. Indeed, although I know by experience that most religious fanatics (the nonviolent ones) are keen to revile and mock their contradictors as "militant" for speaking or devil-inspired for contradicting them or other such grotesque insults, reviling and mocking them back publicly does no one any favors. Presenting the facts in a non-emotional and open way is much more successful and acceptable, but one can understand that most people get "compassion fatigue" from self-censoring and over-exposure.
Indeed, the internet has so-far been a safe haven for free-thought and free-speech, so being big and brave with one's words and attitudes has been common among all (on all sides) who aren't afraid of loosing their beliefs through conversation and education. Having the guts to talk to unknown people from the pool of the few accepting people, the mentally unstable, the possibly violent, or the highly emotional and reactive is hard to expect when doing such in-person. I myself have seen how crazed people are about their believes, to the point of willful ignore: they "just don't want to hear it." In a haven for free-though and free-speech such a proclamation would basically be a white-flag of surrender, a confession of just not having that convincingly strong of counterpoints.
Of course, even in the internet, most talks or ideas (unless they are from children) aren't usually about individual people but about generalized groups (cutting away their wider range), since most people understand that they don't know the individual people they are talking with well enough to make good analysis about them specifically/personally. There used to be some places in the world where you would be killed merely for not having the same religion.
It is good to keep all these, ideas, models, and explanations in mind.
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What leads some to "Religious Fanaticism?"
