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Originally Posted by Jackie Mcpherson
Well...lets give it a whirl (shall we).
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Well...lets give it a whirl (shall we).
* [1]Prehistoric Primitive Ceremonies.
• [2]Eating bread as Remembrance of the Body Christ Crucified.
• [2]Drinking Red Wine as if it were the Blood of Christ.
• [3]The back and forth Chanting between Priest and Pew.
• [4]The Tradition of Priests and Nuns being Virgins and having no spouse.
• [5]The Gothic Garb they wear.
• [6]The sprinkling of water to wash away the Sin.
• [7]The Baptism of children...to be dunked in Water to wash away Sin.
• [8]The Obscene amount of Wealth possessed by the Catholic Church which they [STOLE from its members.
• [9]]The Political influence of the Church amongest its followers to this day.
• [10]The Hypocrisy of the Church that blesses those who kill (whoever gives money to the church gets to have their sins forgiven) and victims of other religions who are condemned.
Clearly there is good work done by the Catholic Church...but to continue to believe and follow this religion with any conviction is truly delusional
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My replies [plural] [2]
For the sake of ease of following along I have taken the liberty of numbering your points. For the sake of easier reading; I will break my reply into three post:
God willing they will appear consecutively?
Hi Jackie, sounds like were both Irish. I’m going to break this into multiple post as otherwise no one except me and you will read it. And I DO wish to address all of your points; for which I am grateful for the opportunity. Thank you!
[quote]Let’s do “give it a whirl.”
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“Prehistoric Primitive Ceremonies.”[/QUOTE]
“Historic” rather than “prehistoric, if you please.
After all the RCC is only about 2,000 years old. But your point makes evident the consistency of belief-practices being manifested. Catholic ceremonies have a short evolutionary period; which began with Christ Himself; and the garb of that time and place. The location was the Upper Room where the Jewish Feast [Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the Passover lamb {“male and “perfect” and as such prefigures Christ Himself} had to be sacrificed.] was taking place. I’ll share the bible reference but only copy parts of it. You can look the rest up yourself if you’re interested, By the way; what you argument out points out with clarity that it is todays Catholic Church that dates back directly to the Apostles and Jesus Himself. Thanks.
Luke 20: parts of 7-21 “[7] Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, on which the passover lamb had to be sacrificed. [8]
So Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, "Go and prepare the passover for us, that we may eat it." [14] And when the hour came, he sat at table, and the apostles with him. [15] And he said to them, "I have earnestly desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer; [16] for I tell you I shall not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God." [17] And he took a cup, [singular] and when he had given thanks he said, "Take this, and divide it among yourselves; [18] for I tell you that from now on I shall not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." [19]
And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you.
Do this in remembrance of me." [20] And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out
for you is the new covenant in my blood.”
Jackie, I share this to make several important points:
1.
The “Primitive Ceremony” as you call it was birthed by God Himself, and then continued by Christ, {also God} and a Jew, obeying a 2,000 year history of the Exodus as described as mandatory in the bible. { Exodus Chapter 12}
2.
This then, Jewish Feast has become what is today called: “The Mass”; “the Eucharist; & the “Pascal Mystery”. I’ll stick with “The Mass”. What begin as a “meal” in commemoration of the Great Egyptian Exodus from captivity into the promised land, has morphed into the Commanded remembrance of our Blessed Lords Passion, Death [in his human nature; leaving only his human Soul], and Resurrection of His now Glorified Body.
It is this original; this one Sacrifice as even Jesus/God can only die one time that is commemorated. … So the Mass then is the actual “RE-presentation”; which is to say that very original Passion, Death and Resurrection NOW in His Glorified Body; which is made REAL and PRESENT, miraculously and mysteriously time and time again. This reality is the “sum” and the “summit” of our Catholic Faith beliefs and practice. Because it is; IT Is Really, Truly and Substanually Jesus Christ Himself that we encounter in Catholic HOLY Communion.
Mt. 26:26-28; Mk. 14: 22-24; Lk. 22:17-20, John All of Chapter six, but in particular verses 47-56; Paul 1st. Cor. 11: 23-30.
This Commemoration in the beginning, starting right after the Resurrection of Jesus; was known as “The
Breaking of the Bread”:
Acts.2:42 “And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.” … Which too points indisputably to today Catholic Church being the one true Church desired and established on that very eve by Jesus Christ personally. And further explains the ancient ceremony that heads the List of you quarry, founded and still practiced today and until the end of time as commanded.
Catholic Holy Communion is made possible by a miraculous gift
BY God the Father;
OF God the Son; and
BY God the Holy Spirit
Our Catholic catechism recounts a historically provable account. I
CCC {Catechism of the Catholic Church}
CCC #1345 As early as the second century we have the witness of St. Justin Martyr for the basic lines of the order of the Eucharistic celebration. They have stayed the same until our own day for all the great liturgical families. St. Justin wrote to the pagan emperor Antoninus Pius (138-161)
around the year 155, explaining what Christians did:
On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.
The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.
When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.
Then we all rise together and offer prayers* for ourselves . . .and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.
When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.
Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.
He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.
When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: 'Amen.'
When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the "eucharisted" bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.” End quote
The term “Eucharist: means “thanksgiving’. As well we ought as God/Jesus actually is made Preset to us. Imagine God loving us so very much as to assume the form of inanimate bread and wine that HE transforms Traunsbstanuation through the hands of His Catholic Priest; into His very Body; Blood; Soul and Divinity! What an amazing and humble God we have.
The Other ceremonies evolve around the other Sacraments of which there are Seven ;a number that stands for “complete or sufficient,” which is quite fitting as Jesus Himself gave them to His Church as Super-Natural, & contra natural aids as a source of Grace; thus providing Catholics with graces beneficial to our Souls task of meriting heaven.
The Seven Sacraments are: Baptism, Confession/Penance, / Eucharist/ Confirmation/ Marriage/ Holy Orders// & Anointing of the sick. Five out of the Seven take place normally in conjunction with the Mass.
The vestments worn by the priest are a Sacred-Tradition dating back to the apparel of Jesus and the Apostles; and emulate them as a reminder of our Catholic roots.
There are two forms of the Mass in our times:
The Extraordinary Form; also known as the “Latin Mass”
The Ordinary form: Said most often in only English [although some Latin IS to be retained; as it; Latin, remains the Mother Tongue of the Universal Catholic Church.
The Universality of the Mass insures that anywhere in the world where Mass is Offered; it would be similar enough for one to comprehend it even if said in a foreign language.
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• [2] Eating bread as Remembrance of the Body Christ Crucified. & Drinking Red Wine as if it were the Blood of Christ.
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Having just covered this in some detail I will suggest that you also check in this string: Post #34, which expands the explanation. If however Jackie, you have more questions; please send me a private message and I will be happy to address them further.
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[3]The back and forth Chanting between Priest and Pew
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It would seem that either you are a former Catholic or have seen this perhaps in a movie somewhere. “Chant” has not been a dominate part of the Sacred Liturgy; as the Norm, in the Mass for more than 50 years [pre-Vatican II]. I dare say no more than 20%-30% of Catholics are even aware of it.
The practice stems from the saying: “To SING is to pray twice.” Meaning reverent song is held in high esteem within the Catholic Church. Chant that you reference was actually PRAYER set to music: for example [this is most often done in Latin], the Mother tongue of the RCC: “BLESSED BE GOD” & the response “AND Blessed Be HIS HOLY NAME” is a brief example of chant.
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[4]The Tradition of Priests and Nuns being Virgins and having no spouse.
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Actually as stated; this is only a partial truth. Virginity is not an absolute prerequisite of Priestly or Religious life. Our history includes Saints and saints who were even married before working in Christ Vineyard fulltime. [Saints= those investigated and found worthy to have merited heaven immediately upon their death; and saints =those who attained heaven but have not been specifically affirmed as having merited Eternal Bliss; perhaps having done so through the merits of
Purgatory first. [And yes this too is biblical]
Within the RCC Both the Priesthood and Religious Life are completely voluntary. No one is forced into Service for Christ; and each one who does answer the call KNOWS before hand what will be expected of them. They OFFER this sacrifice up and receive the Grace from God to do so.
Evidence of Purgatory in the Bible
Lev.22: 21 “And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.
Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.”
Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
But you are correct: virginity is quite common in the ranks of both Priest and Religious. This is always a personal choice; one highly favored by God for those to whom He grants this vocation within their vocation; and to whom sufficient; even abundant grace is offered in order to make this sacrifice possible.
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[5]The Gothic Garb they wear.
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Part of the reason for the existing Sacred Tradition of “Priestly Garb”, is that in Sacramental Confession:
John 20:19-23 [even in the King James Bible]; and also in the Sacrament of the Most Holy Eucharist; the Priest represents Christ Himself. In Sacramental Confession; the priest is empowered by God to act on His behalf:
Cf. John 17:18 & 20:21. “As My Father has sent “Me”; so too I now send “YOU!” And in the Mass, at the Consecration the Priest himself is transformed at and for the very instant of the “Traunsbstanuation” [just a theological term expressing what takes place] into an “alter-Christi” [another Christ]. So it is very fitting that the priest emulate the Garb of Jesus and the Apostles; as they to “ARE Sent.” Which is what the term “apostles” denotes.
END OF MY REPLY PART 1 OF 2
God Bless you,
Patrick
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