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Originally Posted by Eusebius It was God Who gave you the grace to endure the suffering and it is He Who supplied the lemons so you could make lemonade.
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mordant responded: Sorry, but I'm taking the credit for this one. The ONLY person who lifted a little finger to help me, was me, thank you very much.
I suppose you created your own lemons too, thanks only to you. And you gave yourself life and breath. It was God Who gave you that little finger. It was He Who put the desire in you to make the lemonade.
In the face of all the challenges and hazards of simply existing, what can you possibly say to try to make it seem reasonable or fair except to declare by fiat that it is good because god allowed it? It's lame, but I admit, if you're going to claim a deity is in control AND that this deity has our best interests at heart, you can only have said deity furiously minting IOUs redeemable mostly upon one's death, if then.
This can be comforting to the lucky and the strong, but to anyone touched by chronic illness, death, and other tragedies, it actually tightens the screws of the torture rack quite a bit.
Although Eusebius has thus far to my knowledge refrained from doing it overtly, it's also pretty common to accuse the victim of somehow bringing it on themselves. If we have a system of belief that tells us life is good and god is good and just, then people whose lives are manifestly unjust and miserable belie that and suggest that the same could happen to anyone. To deflect that, the sufferer must be blamed, overtly or covertly, for their issues. Even if, as Catholicism often does, the sufferer is venerated to sainthood, it is still isolating and otherizing and keeps the sufferer safely out of the mainstream that lucky people swim in. In fact a sainted sufferer now has an identity that requires continued suffering, thus absolving people of any sense of obligation to do what they can to help. Misery is safely isolated -- even celebrated -- in a chosen vessel and kept separate from non-suffering.
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Whatever. We can go round and round about this until the cows come home ... Eusebius has his rationalizations for what I consider unacceptable and that's just the way it is. Others have even more unseemly rationalizations that involve eternal punishment for the unworthy -- or what one might term, "let them suffer and god will sort it out". It is what it is.
Excellent post. You describe perfectly how "God" is often used to blame the victim.
Usually, the reasoning boils down to "that suffering person must be getting what they deserve, since this is a universe ruled by a just and loving God" It's so much more comforting (and ego-boosting) than thinking, "it's a result of living in a random and uncaring universe, and it could just as easily happen to me."
Excellent post. You describe perfectly how "God" is used to blame the victim.
Usually, the reasoning boils down to "that suffering person must be getting what they deserve." It's so much more comforting (and ego-boosting) than thinking, "it's a result of living in a random and uncaring universe."
I never use God to blame the victim. The Scriptures do not suggest the sufferer is getting what they deserve. The book of Job is actually against your reasoning.
Yes it is more comforting but I fail to see it as "eon-boosting." Humanity is caused to suffer evil to humble them, not boost their ego.
You in fact do. By saying that God is punishing them because they have to learn something, you are saying that they deserve it, it brought it upon themselves somehow. That is exactly what you are doing.
Hello JerZ,
Thanks for bringing this up.
Let's look at it this way: First of all, I wouldn't be telling the mother of the three year old that, as her daughter is being raped to death. I'd be calling the police on her and the boyfriend and probably do a citizens arrest on the perpetrators until the police arrive. This too is out of God that they be arrested and imprisoned.
But you bring up something as horrible as that as if to put God's sovereignty in the worst light possible. But God needs no PR men to shield Him. You see JerZ, the worst sin in the universe was already committed: the murder of God's perfect Son, Jesus Christ. And it is through that death that all mankind will eventually be saved. And God made sure the murder would take place.
We are all sinners. We all need saved. All our sins will be justified when placed in the crucible of Christ's death. Romans 5:18,19 tells us that all mankind will one day be justified, i.e., set right. Their sins, their murders, their lies, thieving, rape etc. will all be justified.
I don't need to fish to "put God's sovereignty in the worst light possible." If things like this happened even once they'd be putting God's sovereignty in the worst light possible. Atrocities, including horrific child abuse, happen every day. Every. Single. Day. I don't need to dig deep and the fact that God would allow such a thing even once in the entire history of mankind would be horrific on its own account...much less atrocities occuring daily.
Re: the perpetrators being imprisoned...So someone spending decades in the prison system bargaining for cigarettes and being fed, clothed, given cable TV and even a workout room and more, compares to a terrified, painful death of a tiny child who is screaming and begging? And do these people even always go to prison? Child abusers, rapists? Nope.
"...and it is through (Jesus') death that all mankind will eventually be saved. And God made sure the murder would take place." Again, needless blood and a taste for bloodthirstiness. So-and-so must die a painful nailed bleeding suffering thirsty whipped death in order to "save" mankind. Bloodlust. It's GOD. Correct? It could wave its Hand to "save" all mankind (from crimes mankind committed because God MADE mankind able to commit them and indeed, made sure it happened, just as you said God made sure the "murder" of Jesus would happen).
Could anything on earth be more bloodthirsty and revel more in pain than Biblegod, at least as he's portrayed in the Bible and by fundies? I'm really not sure anything could. If God "wanted" to "save" people he would do it with a word. Period. He doesn't, apparently. Rather, he wants to exact his pound of flesh. Over and over and over again. No amount of suffering ever seems to be enough for Biblegod. It's said around here quite a bit that it's over the top to accuse Biblegod of being "a psychopath" but seriously, look at the evidence.
You in fact do. By saying that God is punishing them because they have to learn something, you are saying that they deserve it, it brought it upon themselves somehow. That is exactly what you are doing.
Jesus did nothing to deserve being crucified.
Job did nothing to deserve all the evil that came on him as well.
I didn't say evil is "punishment" as you wrongly suggest. Evil is not brought on us because we have done something to deserve it.
You are incorrect as to your opinion.
I don't need to fish to "put God's sovereignty in the worst light possible." If things like this happened even once they'd be putting God's sovereignty in the worst light possible. Atrocities, including horrific child abuse, happen every day. Every. Single. Day. I don't need to dig deep and the fact that God would allow such a thing even once in the entire history of mankind would be horrific on its own account...much less atrocities occuring daily.
Re: the perpetrators being imprisoned...So someone spending decades in the prison system bargaining for cigarettes and being fed, clothed, given cable TV and even a workout room and more, compares to a terrified, painful death of a tiny child who is screaming and begging? And do these people even always go to prison? Child abusers, rapists? Nope.
"...and it is through (Jesus') death that all mankind will eventually be saved. And God made sure the murder would take place." Again, needless blood and a taste for bloodthirstiness. So-and-so must die a painful nailed bleeding suffering thirsty whipped death in order to "save" mankind. Bloodlust. It's GOD. Correct? It could wave its Hand to "save" all mankind (from crimes mankind committed because God MADE mankind able to commit them and indeed, made sure it happened, just as you said God made sure the "murder" of Jesus would happen).
Could anything on earth be more bloodthirsty and revel more in pain than Biblegod, at least as he's portrayed in the Bible and by fundies? I'm really not sure anything could. If God "wanted" to "save" people he would do it with a word. Period. He doesn't, apparently. Rather, he wants to exact his pound of flesh. Over and over and over again. No amount of suffering ever seems to be enough for Biblegod. It's said around here quite a bit that it's over the top to accuse Biblegod of being "a psychopath" but seriously, look at the evidence.
Jesus did nothing to deserve being crucified.
Job did nothing to deserve all the evil that came on him as well.
I didn't say evil is "punishment" as you wrongly suggest. Evil is not brought on us because we have done something to deserve it.
You are incorrect as to your opinion.
I am not incorrect. What reason would God have to PUNISH someone if they did nothing deserving of it? They had to have done something wrong, otherwise God is simply PUNISHING people for the fun of it. Sick sick mind.
I never use God to blame the victim. The Scriptures do not suggest the sufferer is getting what they deserve. The book of Job is actually against your reasoning.
Yes it is more comforting but I fail to see it as "eon-boosting." Humanity is caused to suffer evil to humble them, not boost their ego.
Then you cannot condemn any act as bad since you believe that the people who suffer from them could be getting what they deserve or as a way of humbling someone. If it all works out for good, then any horrific act could be considered simply a means to that end and should be defended.
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