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Perhaps we can just agree that evil, wicked and sinful are loaded terms then, because from that perspective it doesn't really matter if we agree on whether they are fundamentally theological concepts. They are shaming terms that suggest that the reason a child does a thing has something to do with their fundamental character, nature and makeup. And that is destructive and harmful to suggest when a misbehaving child is simply ignorant of the full facts of their situation and inexperienced at the required self discipline and needs loving correction and mentoring, not to be made to feel that they are awful persons.
Telling a child that what they are doing is harmful, unethical, or inconsiderate is focusing on the actions. Telling them that it is evil, wicked or sinful is focusing on their worth as a person.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I have often pointed out that the "we are sinners and filthy rags to God" is a hateful and extremely dangerous teaching that has been perpetuated by the churches in total ignorance of human psychology. It has promulgated some of the most heinous child-rearing practices that do not just border on abuse but sometimes lead to actual abuse - all in the name of God!!! We have innate selfishness as a survival instinct and we operate on the pleasure/pain principle. Our animal nature approaches pleasure and avoids pain or threats to survival. Our embryo Spirit must learn to discriminate and use self-control when the natural pleasure/pain options conflict with what we know to be right or wrong, good or evil.
But we must develop that control as we mature, so we cannot expect a mere sprout to perform with as much control as a sapling and not as much as an adult tree, and certainly not as much as a mighty oak!! Telling little Johnny that if he was one of God's good little boys he would WANT to share his candy with his brother is not only untrue but teaches little Johnny the wrong lesson. He knows in his heart of hearts that he doesn't remotely want to share his chocolate with his brother. That forces him to conclude that he is NOT one of God's good little boys even if he complies!
Telling little Johnny that if he was one of God's good little boys he would WANT to share his candy with his brother is not only untrue but teaches little Johnny the wrong lesson. He knows in his heart of hearts that he doesn't remotely want to share his chocolate with his brother. That forces him to conclude that he is NOT one of God's good little boys even if he complies!
Fundamentalist hamartiology is designed to convince a person even as a child that they are vile and horrible and unworthy, thus cementing the need for an antidote to an imagined disease.
Not that the human condition doesn't involve dysfunction. It just comes from a different place and has a different remedy than conservative dogma specifies. As you suggest, it is simply a matter of lacking mature judgment and perspective and self control to override desires where appropriate and necessary. Those desires come, not from a sin nature, but from natural selection. Assume anything remotely out of the ordinary is an existential threat, attack or run and ask question later, and/or take what's yours without regard for others is great for survival, bad for civil society and personal peace of mind within it. When you understand this it becomes a matter of applying oneself to increasing mastery and self discipline, not the sweeping under the carpet of a shameful secret.
But we must develop that control as we mature, so we cannot expect a mere sprout to perform with as much control as a sapling and not as much as an adult tree, and certainly not as much as a mighty oak!! Telling little Johnny that if he was one of God's good little boys he would WANT to share his candy with his brother is not only untrue but teaches little Johnny the wrong lesson. He knows in his heart of hearts that he doesn't remotely want to share his chocolate with his brother. That forces him to conclude that he is NOT one of God's good little boys even if he complies!
I used to struggle a lot with that when I was a fundamentalist Christian. I knew that if you were a true Christian, the holy spirit in you would produce not only the right actions, but also the right desires, thoughts and impulses. You should WANT to turn the other cheek, or sell everything you have etc. I could produce the right actions, mostly - short of selling everything I had. But it was mostly out of a sense of duty towards God and love for him, not a sincere inner desire to do those very things. Thus, I was never entirely sure of my own salvation.
I will say it at once: I do not believe in the story of Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit in God's garden, and the guilt for their action somehow falling onto the entire human race. If that story were true, then God would be the one responsible for making them face the temptation unprepared.
But still, sometimes it seems to me that humanity has a natural bent to being evil. Other species would kill for food or in self-defense, and humans do that too, of course. But unlike other species, humans seem to enjoy doing harm to other living beings (whether fellow man or other species) even when it brings no tangible benefit to themselves whatsoever, just for the fun of it. Just recently there was a thread on CD about kids who put their baby sibling into a hot oven. I can imagine those kids did not know what they were doing at first. But when the screaming started, these kids knew very well that the baby was suffering, and they still did nothing. And that is only one example.
People, both children and adults, inflicting pain on animals, for no use whatever. Trophy hunting. People throwing their garbage all over the place, trashing their neighborhoods, painting graffiti tags on walls. People being obnoxious and rude to others for no other reason than they can do it. And so on, and so forth....
So, what do you think, do people have an innate inclination to evil, or are they fundamentally good, but sometimes misguided creatures?
Evil occurs when someone does something harmful to you. Righteous is when you do it to them first.
I will say it at once: I do not believe in the story of Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit in God's garden, and the guilt for their action somehow falling onto the entire human race. If that story were true, then God would be the one responsible for making them face the temptation unprepared.
But still, sometimes it seems to me that humanity has a natural bent to being evil. Other species would kill for food or in self-defense, and humans do that too, of course. But unlike other species, humans seem to enjoy doing harm to other living beings (whether fellow man or other species) even when it brings no tangible benefit to themselves whatsoever, just for the fun of it. Just recently there was a thread on CD about kids who put their baby sibling into a hot oven. I can imagine those kids did not know what they were doing at first. But when the screaming started, these kids knew very well that the baby was suffering, and they still did nothing. And that is only one example.
People, both children and adults, inflicting pain on animals, for no use whatever. Trophy hunting. People throwing their garbage all over the place, trashing their neighborhoods, painting graffiti tags on walls. People being obnoxious and rude to others for no other reason than they can do it. And so on, and so forth....
So, what do you think, do people have an innate inclination to evil, or are they fundamentally good, but sometimes misguided creatures?
Either I was born very evil or maybe I am one of the few people who actually know that I am evil. Personally, I really don't believe most men, especially Christian men when they seem so righteous, I don't think they are. I met one last night, a 4th grade teacher, and the Guy seemed like the most righteous man I may have ever met, and still, I bet he has his secrets.
I would hate to think every man was as bad as me and either I am extra evil or maybe I am normal and I acknowledge my evilness better than others, my misdeeds are always staring me in the face and even if I have cause to get angry, I feel like a murderer just from that anger.
Even if it is completely somebody else's fault and they need to get slapped, I still feel guilty for slapping them about.
I used to struggle a lot with that when I was a fundamentalist Christian. I knew that if you were a true Christian, the holy spirit in you would produce not only the right actions, but also the right desires, thoughts and impulses. You should WANT to turn the other cheek, or sell everything you have etc. I could produce the right actions, mostly - short of selling everything I had. But it was mostly out of a sense of duty towards God and love for him, not a sincere inner desire to do those very things. Thus, I was never entirely sure of my own salvation.
In my opinion, as long as someone thinks "salvation" has anything to do with avoiding God's punishment (as some Christians do), that's a normal insecurity to have. To me, salvation is about being healed of the things that damage my ability to love self and others, and that is an ongoing process. Believing that God is angry with humanity and has a need to punish us for messing up is one of the major things that did damage to my ability to love when I was a Christian. Just my .02.
Believing that God is angry with humanity and has a need to punish us for messing up is one of the major things that did damage to my ability to love when I was a Christian. Just my .02.
Even when Christians don't believe god has a need to punish us eternally, they have the issue of sanctification to deal with, which at a very minimum means you have to feel guilty and inadequate for having very human weaknesses and desires.
Believers speak of "fighting the good fight". This is the fight against "the flesh" (one's own humanity). A very unhelpful way to understand self control and personal discipline and why it's needed, if you ask me. It is not one's inherent nature that needs mortification; it is aspects of one's evolutionary adaptations that are out of phase with what is adaptive in modern society, that simply need to be trained and focused. It's not a fight, any more than it's a fight to learn to swim or type. And it's no less doable.
Even when Christians don't believe god has a need to punish us eternally, they have the issue of sanctification to deal with, which at a very minimum means you have to feel guilty and inadequate for having very human weaknesses and desires.
Believers speak of "fighting the good fight". This is the fight against "the flesh" (one's own humanity). A very unhelpful way to understand self control and personal discipline and why it's needed, if you ask me. It is not one's inherent nature that needs mortification; it is aspects of one's evolutionary adaptations that are out of phase with what is adaptive in modern society, that simply need to be trained and focused. It's not a fight, any more than it's a fight to learn to swim or type. And it's no less doable.
Perhaps you're right. I'm still trying to figure out what baggage I've carried with me from my former religious beliefs into my heathen-ism.
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