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No, he's worse than a man. He's an omnipotent being who does evil when it suits him and who has no accountability, apparently not even to himself. That he asserts he doesn't lie because he's not human really rings hollow under those circumstances. If he does evil then he is evil and if he is evil then he lies.
No special pleading now. Evil people are, as M. Scott Peck ably pointed out, "people of the lie". Lying is integral to evil. If god is evil, then god lies to accomplish evil. He says that he is good, yet does evil. He says that he has an absolute moral code, then violates it himself. And it's all downhill from there.
Exactly.
The bible god is a monster and it astounds me that so many still consider it worthy of worship.
The bible god is a monster and it astounds me that so many still consider it worthy of worship.
Well, it's very similar to an ancient culture tossing a virgin into a volcano in order to appease a god. It's really not very removed from that sort of mindset. If at all.
Indeed, originally Yaweh DID demand sacrifice. Apparently not human sacrifice but the specific death of animals followed by burning. However, human sacrifice was hinted at and so possibly formerly practiced (i.e. Abraham/Isaac) and of course, ultimately, Jesus was "sacrificed" (painfully, bloodily and horrifically). Again...not seeing the difference between this and some ancient culture tossing a virgin into a crevasse to appease something mighty.
People believing the gods are difficult or even impossible to please and that blood and death are required in order to appease them is a very very old construct - it is probably much older than written history itself. So too was (is) the belief that gods will punish times ten (or more) for various infractions; that the punishment will be absolutely horrific compared to the crime. This is likely the result of observation - i.e. "I live a good life but I lied once, is that why my child was killed in a horrible accident?" - which caused (causes) people to believe in, and fear terribly, the invisible inscrutable "wrath" of the gods/God. Bad things - ALL bad things - MUST be our fault and according to (incorrect) observation, the punishment will always be much more than the infraction, and therefore is to be feared constantly, and worked against (prayer, belief, begging, etc.).
This mindset was, and is, based on ignorance of fact (i.e. "This person got cancer because he smoked for 35 years" v. "this person got cancer for some entirely inscrutable reason...the gods must be angry...we'd better do something we think they'd like us to do...I know, they seem to want to make us suffer, let's suffer more, let's deny ourselves, let's sacrifice, let's call ourselves less than nothing before the gods, let's prostrate ourselves before them").
Baffling violence against humans on the part of the gods (including Biblegod) is ancient as is the conclusion (which actually would follow quite logically) that those gods therefore desire violence and "sacrifice" and is pretty much on-par with some islander 15,000 years ago begging the gods, "What do you want???"
Some day we'll get past this sort of belief in gods as violent things that require the impossible of man, then get angry when that impossible isn't accomplished. As ignorance gets pushed back into the farthest corners, more and more people are moving away from these old, brutal, tribal, gut-reaction religions (including the belief in Biblegod), and it's no coincidence.
ETA: Not "telling" you, TD, I know you already know this stuff... ;P Just pointing it out for any lurkers out there.
No, he's worse than a man. He's an omnipotent being who does evil when it suits him and who has no accountability, apparently not even to himself. That he asserts he doesn't lie because he's not human really rings hollow under those circumstances. If he does evil then he is evil and if he is evil then he lies.
It is not that He does evil when it suits Him. The Scriptures don't state that. He uses evil in His immutabie will to bring about the greatest good possible. Since God "declares the end from the beginning" He it is Who is in control of the future. So He knows when best to use evil so that the greatest good will come of it.
For instance, the greatest evil upon another human was the assassination of His Son who knew no sin. Yet God made sure it would occur. Yet we see that the very evil which the perpetrators brought upon His Son is the very evil act which will eventuate in their salvation. God does not lie. God is love.
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No special pleading now. Evil people are, as M. Scott Peck ably pointed out, "people of the lie". Lying is integral to evil. If god is evil, then god lies to accomplish evil. He says that he is good, yet does evil. He says that he has an absolute moral code, then violates it himself. And it's all downhill from there.
God isn't evil. Yes, God created evil, but He did not sin in creating evil. Paul stated that some were saying, according to what Paul was teaching that we can do evil that good may come so he wrote: Shall we be doing evil that good may come? May it not be coming to that!" was his response. We are not God and so cannot assure the outcome of an evil act we do will eventuate in a good outcome unlike God who can.
Evil in God's hands has no moral bias. There is no such thing as "moral evil" in the Scriptures.
It is not that He does evil when it suits Him. The Scriptures don't state that. He uses evil in His immutabie will to bring about the greatest good possible. Since God "declares the end from the beginning" He it is Who is in control of the future. So He knows when best to use evil so that the greatest good will come of it.
For instance, the greatest evil upon another human was the assassination of His Son who knew no sin. Yet God made sure it would occur. Yet we see that the very evil which the perpetrators brought upon His Son is the very evil act which will eventuate in their salvation. God does not lie. God is love.
God isn't evil. Yes, God created evil, but He did not sin in creating evil. Paul stated that some were saying, according to what Paul was teaching that we can do evil that good may come so he wrote: Shall we be doing evil that good may come? May it not be coming to that!" was his response. We are not God and so cannot assure the outcome of an evil act we do will eventuate in a good outcome unlike God who can.
Evil in God's hands has no moral bias. There is no such thing as "moral evil" in the Scriptures.
Why can't your god make greater goods without evil? Is that beyond his power?
We learn by contrast. Without the evil we could never truly appreciate the good in an experiential way.
We learn the way your god made us though. So is he the allpowerful god of reality or is he a screaming incompetent toddler blaming the toys for being toys?
Well, it's very similar to an ancient culture tossing a virgin into a volcano in order to appease a god. It's really not very removed from that sort of mindset. If at all.
Indeed, originally Yaweh DID demand sacrifice. Apparently not human sacrifice but the specific death of animals followed by burning. However, human sacrifice was hinted at and so possibly formerly practiced (i.e. Abraham/Isaac) and of course, ultimately, Jesus was "sacrificed" (painfully, bloodily and horrifically). Again...not seeing the difference between this and some ancient culture tossing a virgin into a crevasse to appease something mighty.
People believing the gods are difficult or even impossible to please and that blood and death are required in order to appease them is a very very old construct - it is probably much older than written history itself. So too was (is) the belief that gods will punish times ten (or more) for various infractions; that the punishment will be absolutely horrific compared to the crime. This is likely the result of observation - i.e. "I live a good life but I lied once, is that why my child was killed in a horrible accident?" - which caused (causes) people to believe in, and fear terribly, the invisible inscrutable "wrath" of the gods/God. Bad things - ALL bad things - MUST be our fault and according to (incorrect) observation, the punishment will always be much more than the infraction, and therefore is to be feared constantly, and worked against (prayer, belief, begging, etc.).
This mindset was, and is, based on ignorance of fact (i.e. "This person got cancer because he smoked for 35 years" v. "this person got cancer for some entirely inscrutable reason...the gods must be angry...we'd better do something we think they'd like us to do...I know, they seem to want to make us suffer, let's suffer more, let's deny ourselves, let's sacrifice, let's call ourselves less than nothing before the gods, let's prostrate ourselves before them").
Baffling violence against humans on the part of the gods (including Biblegod) is ancient as is the conclusion (which actually would follow quite logically) that those gods therefore desire violence and "sacrifice" and is pretty much on-par with some islander 15,000 years ago begging the gods, "What do you want???"
Some day we'll get past this sort of belief in gods as violent things that require the impossible of man, then get angry when that impossible isn't accomplished. As ignorance gets pushed back into the farthest corners, more and more people are moving away from these old, brutal, tribal, gut-reaction religions (including the belief in Biblegod), and it's no coincidence.
ETA: Not "telling" you, TD, I know you already know this stuff... ;P Just pointing it out for any lurkers out there.
Excellent history lesson. And Yahweh STILL demands the sacrifice...human sacrifice...of his "Son" Jesus on a cross. I was explicitly taught that death is a punishment from Yahweh for sin, and that Jesus' human sacrifice on a cross is what appeased his wrath so that we could live forever.
Like you suggest, it is stunning how this kind of thinking still persists in the 21st century.
We learn by contrast. Without the evil we could never truly appreciate the good in an experiential way.
Why would your God not create us with this knowledge, without requiring us to suffer from this God-inflicted evil?
Why would God feel the need to create anything, for that matter? It would seem that an omnimax (I like that word) being would not need or want anything.
People believing the gods are difficult or even impossible to please and that blood and death are required in order to appease them is a very very old construct - it is probably much older than written history itself.
I am about halfway through Escape from Evil, the posthumously published sequel and companion piece to Ernest Becker's excellent Denial of Death. If you ever want a good read on this topic I heartily recommend it. It turns out that sacred ritual, including the central ritual of sacrifice, is not just to appease the gods. Such things were a sort of pre-technological manufacturing and maintenance process for keeping what they conceived to be the machinery of the universe running. Modern man exerts control over the environment through technology, and uses abstractions like money and political power in place of the mystical formulations of tribal chiefs and witch doctors, and distances himself from the rest of the animal world by inflating himself into a special being. But psychologically and primally he is still doing the same thing ... sublimating his fear of dissolution and insignificance by whatever means necessary.
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Originally Posted by JerZ
So too was (is) the belief that gods will punish times ten (or more) for various infractions; that the punishment will be absolutely horrific compared to the crime. This is likely the result of observation - i.e. "I live a good life but I lied once, is that why my child was killed in a horrible accident?" - which caused (causes) people to believe in, and fear terribly, the invisible inscrutable "wrath" of the gods/God. Bad things - ALL bad things - MUST be our fault and according to (incorrect) observation, the punishment will always be much more than the infraction, and therefore is to be feared constantly, and worked against (prayer, belief, begging, etc.).
Not just the wrath of demanding and cranky deities, but for primitive man, it was often jealous dead spirits attacking you or a powerful witch casting a spell or an enemy praying for your defeat more effectively than you're praying for his.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ
This mindset was, and is, based on ignorance of fact (i.e. "This person got cancer because he smoked for 35 years" v. "this person got cancer for some entirely inscrutable reason...the gods must be angry...we'd better do something we think they'd like us to do...I know, they seem to want to make us suffer, let's suffer more, let's deny ourselves, let's sacrifice, let's call ourselves less than nothing before the gods, let's prostrate ourselves before them").
Yes ... or let's get the assistance of someone we feel has a better "in" with the spirit realm than we do ... or let's plead with the chief or king who is the earthly proxy of the gods.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerZ
Some day we'll get past this sort of belief in gods as violent things that require the impossible of man, then get angry when that impossible isn't accomplished. As ignorance gets pushed back into the farthest corners, more and more people are moving away from these old, brutal, tribal, gut-reaction religions (including the belief in Biblegod), and it's no coincidence.
A move towards more gentle, kind, loving gods is better than nothing but we should be careful lest we just make equally hard taskmasters for ourselves. Such as DH Lawrence's "b_tch goddess of success". What mankind should be aiming for is not to substitute one god for another but to transcend attempts to ritually control uncertainty and learn to make peace with it. We're never going to eliminate death entirely, even if we find the key to biological immortality. Removing suffering will provide an environment where it's easier to make meaning and find purpose ... but won't provide actual meaning and purpose. That's on us. It's hard to have a rational self-assessment with ego inflations that tell us we're god's special snowflake on one hand, or ego assaults that tell us we're never good enough to win god's approval on the other. And when we're always overreaching or insecure, we have trouble finding meaning and purpose.
We're always going to bump into the limitations of our intellectual and sensory apparatus and our sheer insignificance in a universe that is either infinite, or might as well be. Somehow humanity has to learn to face that bear-metal reality and make peace with it rather than trying to deny or control it, whether through theistic systems or modern proxies.
A move towards more gentle, kind, loving gods is better than nothing but we should be careful lest we just make equally hard taskmasters for ourselves.
Actually, this is what I meant - a move away from needing god-belief, as we now have more logical explanations.
I didn't mean we're necessarily moving toward gentler gods per se...I wouldn't know much about that (i.e. whether that's happening)...unless you mean in the form of new age-y stuff, "connecting with spirit," etc. - is that what you meant?
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