Too much god in AA? Or, why it is a fallacy that it works. (exist, virtual)
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AA and Al-anon continue to call it a disease, which it is not. Other than 6 out of the 12 steps involve some reference to either a higher power or God, all of their literature discusses that alcoholism is a disease.
Why ignore the peer-reviewed science which clearly shows how ineffective these 12 step programs really are?
Don't believe me? Let's go to what the science says. Unfortunately I can only give you abstracts, but it is important what those abstracts say.
The "disease concept" of alcoholism is not needed to justify medical intervention or a caring approach to those who are dependent on alcohol. There is a specific and a general version of the disease concept of alcoholism. The specific disease concept, associated mainly with the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous, is contradicted by empirical evidence and unhelpful for preventive and treatment responses to problem drinking, especially for the effort to detect and modify problem drinking at an early stage.
More evidence that alcohol anonymous efficacy is low to non-existent despite claims to the contrary and despite the many anecdotal testimonies.
The evidence indicates that clearly it does not deliver what it purports to. Individual successes and exceptions do not make it a good program.
No matter how much one wants to invoke a god into the equation.
or take it out.
But remember, they don't care. Those programs are fine about non believers. My question, in a safe house like those two groups, why would you even care or even be mad at them In AA it would be you forcing your belief don their throats.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle
or take it out.
But remember, they don't care. Those programs are fine about non believers. My question, in a safe house like those two groups, why would you even care or even be mad at them In AA it would be you forcing your belief don their throats.
The biggest issue is that they call Alcoholism a disease, which it is not medically. It's an addiction.
Secondly, the emphasis of God firstly, and waaaay down the emphasis on a "higher power" puts the woo into and on to people who need help.
The efficacy and success rate is very low, in fact, it is questionable if it is any better than chance.
To the OP: As a producer of the kind of academic science that is involved in making these judgments, I need to interject here. I spent 30 years producing the kind of instruments the practitioners (clinical psychologists) use, and the social workers rely on. The truth about human psychology is simply NOT amenable to the kind of blanket statements being made. The science is NOT reliable enough at the individual level and the group level has minimal utility. Removing ANY therapy from the arsenal available to deal with the idiosyncrasies of human psychology is folly. No therapy works for everyone.
Alcoholism, like any addiction is a multi-faceted problem. If you want to eliminate psychological problems from the disease category, it will make no real difference. The substance and its effects are integral to reinforcing the addictive behavior. Addictions are primarily psychological aided and abetted by substances that alter brain function. Even gambling alters brain function using the brain's own neurotransmitters. If AA only works for 1 in 100, that is an effective therapy because we have no reliable way to know who will be the 1 in 100.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 03-12-2016 at 07:51 PM..
The biggest issue is that they call Alcoholism a disease, which it is not medically. It's an addiction.
Secondly, the emphasis of God firstly, and waaaay down the emphasis on a "higher power" puts the woo into and on to people who need help.
The efficacy and success rate is very low, in fact, it is questionable if it is any better than chance.
that's kind of true. But what program is better then a chance?
Psychology is based on trying to help "trick" the person into helping themselves until they can do it for themselves. If god works to save their family then try it. If no god works then try it.
GOD can mean a group of drunks.
The success is not in stopping the behavior, I don't any treatment that does that. the success is in having more healthy days then not. I don't know many, if any, addicts that are truly is curved.
I agree with the disease part. But it is a chemical reaction, not the person being a bad person. Some people don't understand the "chemistry" part, no matter how low level you try to explain it, so the word disease helps them. I don't like that either, but I see people latch on and pull themselves up on it.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,910,693 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
To the OP: As a producer of the kind of academic science that is involved in making these judgments, I need to interject here. I spent 30 years producing the kind of instruments the practitioners (clinical psychologists) use, and the social workers rely on. The truth about human psychology is simply NOT amenable to the kind of blanket statements being made. The science is NOT reliable enough at the individual level and the group level has minimal utility. Removing ANY therapy from the arsenal available to deal with the idiosyncrasies of human psychology is folly. No therapy works for everyone.
Alcoholism, like any addiction is a multi-faceted problem. If you want to eliminate psychological problems from the disease category, it will make no real difference. The substance and its effects are integral to reinforcing the addictive behavior. Addictions are primarily psychological aided and abetted by substances that alter brain function. Even gambling alters brain function using the brain's own neurotransmitters. If AA only works for 1 in 100, that is an effective therapy.
Don't take this lay person's word for it. Let's go to the science, which you should be aware of.
The efficacy of AA is marginal at best. It's promotion of the god thing makes it even less relevant for the almost 25% of Americans who are part of the 'nones'.
Let's not use the woo of a 'higher power' in dealing with a serious issue. I would be amenable to any research you could point to that would change my mind.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,910,693 times
Reputation: 4561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arach Angle
that's kind of true. But what program is better then a chance?
Psychology is based on trying to help "trick" the person into helping themselves until they can do it for themselves. If god works to save their family then try it. If no god works then try it.
GOD can mean a group of drunks.
The success is not in stopping the behavior, I don't any treatment that does that. the success is in having more healthy days then not. I don't know many, if any, addicts that are truly is curved.
I agree with the disease part. But it is a chemical reaction, not the person being a bad person. Some people don't understand the "chemistry" part, no matter how low level you try to explain it, so the word disease helps them. I don't like that either, but I see people latch on and pull themselves up on it.
Can AA (and AlAnon) be a support group? Sure, of course they can, but their dependency on the god thing (6 out of the 12 steps involve a god or a higher power) has nothing to do with any recovery. It is just selling a religious perspective.
Although I have had no exposure to the group, it would appear a secular group such as SMART - Self Help Addiction Recovery | SMART Recovery® is much more inclusive and non-prescriptive than the 12 step groups. I think this one of the FAQ sums it up best:
How is SMART Recovery different from Twelve Step programs?
A. SMART Recovery has a scientific foundation, not a spiritual one. SMART Recovery teaches increasing self-reliance, rather than powerlessness. SMART Recovery meetings are discussion meetings in which individuals talk with one another, rather than to one another. SMART Recover encourages attendance for months to years, but probably not a lifetime. There are no sponsors in SMART Recovery. SMART Recovery discourages use of labels such as "alcoholic" or "addict".
This is rationalization in support of denial. The longer you allow your brain to get accustomed to drunkenness in support of your "issues," the harder it will become to stop. You are medicating yourself for "issues" that there are no medications for. Just stop.
There are many kinds or styles of "drunks" such as those who drink in moderation (don't get drunk) and occasionally binge, or the so-called "functional alchoholic". I know that the conventional wisdom, largely thanks to AA, is that it's all-or-nothing, and it may even be that way for most alcoholics. But if the poster you're responding to cut back by 75% last year, that is a victory, however partial. He did not say, of course, so who knows, he may be kidding himself. But your response reminds me a bit of doctors sometimes who admonish me for being 20 pounds overweight when I have type 2 diabetes. I always remind them that I used to be 85 pounds overweight, and over a period of several years I got to where I am and have stayed there now for a decade and a half, by sheer will power. And I sort of insist on getting credit for that hard work. It's easy to judge when you don't know the whole story.
Every time I want a cup of coffee and a donut and deny myself that in honor of the Almighty Glucose Meter, it is a victory. Every time I carve valuable time out of my work day for a walk or a trip to the gym when my blasted bursitis screams at me to not do it, that's a victory too. And so I have to give a drinker credit for every bender he doesn't go on that he wished he could.
I'm not a huge fan of AA. But I have seen it work first-hand. For some, working the steps really does help. On the other hand, I can think of 2 other guys that have stayed sober without going to meetings and doing the steps. One has been sober 10 years. The other just got his 60 day chip.
To be honest, if there is a failing of AA, it's that they don't really address man's problem -- sin. They say to find a higher power, and ask him/her/it for help. One of the 2 guys that I described has a higher power of his Grandma's memory. He just asks himself "What would Grandma think?"
Exactly. His grandma's memory helped him NOT some imaginary God. Stop preaching your BS "sin" stuff Pastor Vizio. People can do all sorts of stuff without believing in imaginary friends. The whole reliance on a so called "higher power" only takes the responsibility away from the person and puts the person in a passive stance. The stupid Bible verse "I can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens me" is pure BS also. People DO things NOT some intervention from some imaginary supernatural being.
This is rationalization in support of denial. The longer you allow your brain to get accustomed to drunkenness in support of your "issues," the harder it will become to stop. You are medicating yourself for "issues" that there are no medications for. Just stop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant
There are many kinds or styles of "drunks" such as those who drink in moderation (don't get drunk) and occasionally binge, or the so-called "functional alchoholic". I know that the conventional wisdom, largely thanks to AA, is that it's all-or-nothing, and it may even be that way for most alcoholics. But if the poster you're responding to cut back by 75% last year, that is a victory, however partial. He did not say, of course, so who knows, he may be kidding himself. But your response reminds me a bit of doctors sometimes who admonish me for being 20 pounds overweight when I have type 2 diabetes. I always remind them that I used to be 85 pounds overweight, and over a period of several years I got to where I am and have stayed there now for a decade and a half, by sheer will power. And I sort of insist on getting credit for that hard work. It's easy to judge when you don't know the whole story.
Every time I want a cup of coffee and a donut and deny myself that in honor of the Almighty Glucose Meter, it is a victory. Every time I carve valuable time out of my work day for a walk or a trip to the gym when my blasted bursitis screams at me to not do it, that's a victory too. And so I have to give a drinker credit for every bender he doesn't go on that he wished he could.
I am largely in agreement with this reasonable analysis because there are too many idiosyncrasies within the human population. That would be why I would NOT rule out ANY therapy that has ANY success rate. But the single most consistent aspect of addiction is denial, mordant. It feeds on selective perception and cognitive dissonance. That is why encouraging it is counter-productive.
Exactly. His grandma's memory helped him NOT some imaginary God. Stop preaching your BS "sin" stuff Pastor Vizio. People can do all sorts of stuff without believing in imaginary friends. The whole reliance on a so called "higher power" only takes the responsibility away from the person and puts the person in a passive stance. The stupid Bible verse "I can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens me" is pure BS also. People DO things NOT some intervention from some imaginary supernatural being.
Sorry, but the psychological ignorance in support of anti-theism in this post is egregious. For YOU none of what you denigrate would be useful. For YOU!!! Stop trying to diagnose and recommend treatments for anyone else.
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