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This is just scientific sophistry. A truly objective evaluation of the attributes of our reality would at the very least acknowledge that they adequately constitute evidence for the concept of God (as was routinely accepted by the early scientists). Changing its label and demanding further evidence to avoid confrontation with religious autocrats is specious.It would abandon any and all implications (if not outright claims) that there is no evidence for God. They CAN legitimately require additional evidence of attributes beyond those known to science, but to claim there is no evidence for God is simply preposterous.
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Originally Posted by wallflash
Your claim is what s preposterous . You have repeatedly been asked for this oh so obvious evidence , and all you can do is make posts about those pointing out you are not giving any beings gnats or mosquitos , and making unsupportable claims about some cosmic field of consciousness .
You have offered nothing to support your claim. Nothing . You are capable of making a lot of claims , but are completely incapable of actually supporting be any of them.
Trying to talk evidence of God with you resembles trying to discuss the origins of life with creationists .
::Sigh:: What would YOU call a Source that is capable of establishing our entire universe with all of its myriad entities (galaxies, black holes, pulsars, solar systems, etc.), is responsible for the existence of life in myriad forms, is responsible for the existence of consciousness and the ability to ponder the vastness and wonder of itself and subjectively experience it, is responsible for the laws that constrain processes and interactions everywhere, etc.???? If NOT God, why not???
::Sigh:: What would YOU call a Source that is capable of establishing our entire universe with all of its myriad entities (galaxies, black holes, pulsars, solar systems, etc.), is responsible for the existence of life in myriad forms, is responsible for the existence of consciousness and the ability to ponder the vastness and wonder of itself and subjectively experience it, is responsible for the laws that constrain processes and interactions everywhere, etc.???? If NOT God, why not???
Nature. The universe . Reality. Pure energy manifested as a material universe . Why do YOU insist that such MUST , HAS TO come from a deity ?
I'm not denying the possibility of a God, I am simply saying we have no evidence to believe such is the case , and without such evidence why WOULD you choose to believe that which is not in evidence ? That just seems delusional . " I have no proof of a Being that created everything , but I choose to believe in such anyway".I don't get going that route . You insist this evidence is there essentially , and obviously self evident , even though those most trained to observe it don't see it, because things exist . But you have no evidence that all this could not happen without God.
So , what evidence do you have that this universe could NOT have happened without God ?
::Sigh:: What would YOU call a Source that is capable of establishing our entire universe with all of its myriad entities (galaxies, black holes, pulsars, solar systems, etc.), is responsible for the existence of life in myriad forms, is responsible for the existence of consciousness and the ability to ponder the vastness and wonder of itself and subjectively experience it, is responsible for the laws that constrain processes and interactions everywhere, etc.???? If NOT God, why not???
::Sigh:: What would YOU call a Source that is capable of establishing our entire universe with all of its myriad entities (galaxies, black holes, pulsars, solar systems, etc.), is responsible for the existence of life in myriad forms, is responsible for the existence of consciousness and the ability to ponder the vastness and wonder of itself and subjectively experience it, is responsible for the laws that constrain processes and interactions everywhere, etc.???? If NOT God, why not???
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash
Nature. The universe . Reality. Pure energy manifested as a material universe . Why do YOU insist that such MUST , HAS TO come from a deity ?
I'm not denying the possibility of a God, I am simply saying we have no evidence to believe such is the case , and without such evidence why WOULD you choose to believe that which is not in evidence ? That just seems delusional . " I have no proof of a Being that created everything , but I choose to believe in such anyway".I don't get going that route . You insist this evidence is there essentially , and obviously self evident , even though those most trained to observe it don't see it, because things exist . But you have no evidence that all this could not happen without God.
So , what evidence do you have that this universe could NOT have happened without God ?
We are talking at cross purposes because we have a different context for Source. Yours is one of a Creator or some outside entity establishing or making our reality happen. Mine is purely existential. God IS our reality and all the attributes we have discovered and can envision (including our ability to imagine) emanate from the mere existence of God and it is they that define it as God. I have previously alluded to the analogy of our own existence as the "God" for the myriad cells and biota that comprise us. That is the context in which I use the attributes we have discovered as evidence for God.
We are talking at cross purposes because we have a different context for Source. Yours is one of a Creator or some outside entity establishing or making our reality happen. Mine is purely existential. God IS our reality and all the attributes we have discovered and can envision (including our ability to imagine) emanate from the mere existence of God and it is they that define it as God. I have previously alluded to the analogy of our own existence as the "God" for the myriad cells and biota that comprise us. That is the context in which I use the attributes we have discovered as evidence for God.
I have said nothing of an outside entity , except as to question your belief in one . YOU are the one tryin to take atheists to task for being atheist , and then responding with comments like the above about "mine is not some outside entity ".
If you are simply calling existence God , then fine, but why mouth off about atheism then when atheism sees no supernatural beings ?
You have not bothered to explain why the universe could not have come into being on its own from unconscious energy . Let's have a two way discussion please . I did you the courtesy of giving you an answer to your question. Please do me the same . Why do you insist on it being a Source ( God) rather than a source ( energy) , and what evidence do you have that it could not have happened without some pantheistic version of God as its Source ?
We are talking at cross purposes because we have a different context for Source. Yours is one of a Creator or some outside entity establishing or making our reality happen. Mine is purely existential. God IS our reality and all the attributes we have discovered and can envision (including our ability to imagine) emanate from the mere existence of God and it is they that define it as God. I have previously alluded to the analogy of our own existence as the "God" for the myriad cells and biota that comprise us. That is the context in which I use the attributes we have discovered as evidence for God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash
I have said nothing of an outside entity , except as to question your belief in one . YOU are the one tryin to take atheists to task for being atheist , and then responding with comments like the above about "mine is not some outside entity ".
If you are simply calling existence God , then fine, but why mouth off about atheism then when atheism sees no supernatural beings ?
There is no such thing as supernatural. That is another of the unconscious assumptions created during the schism between science and religion to justify replacing God with nature or natural, again without any scientific justification, just preference.
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You have not bothered to explain why the universe could not have come into being on its own from unconscious energy . Let's have a two way discussion please . I did you the courtesy of giving you an answer to your question. Please do me the same . Why do you insist on it being a Source ( God) rather than a source ( energy) , and what evidence do you have that it could not have happened without some pantheistic version of God as its Source ?
I am supremely uninterested in how it came into existence. I am interested only in characterizing it based on its known attributes. That it exists is fait accompli. You seem to ignore or refuse to characterize it based on its attributes as an avoidance reaction to the term God and all the religious baggage that has accompanied it. That may be understandable, but it is NOT scientific. Why do its known attributes NOT self-define it as God?? As a completely objective and unbiased matter, what on earth would have such a ubiquitous scope, power and control over everything if NOT God.
I believe you amended it to Giant Interdimensional Space Crabs???
Extradimensional Space Crabs.
Vizio and MysticPhD tell me that the universe needs a creator or a source. So the Space Crabs must be Extradimensional, since they are obviously the creator/source of the universe.
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