Ancient civilizations much more accepting of atheism than modern religions (Mormon, Muslim)
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I know that you're entirely virtuous in this regard, Viz, but please don't deny that atheists have, at least until very recently, been despised and loathed and demonized by society.
At times, certainly. Just as in recent years we're seeing Christians grow more and more despised and loathed in society. I recognize that we are seeing a rise in the vocal atheist.
At times, certainly. Just as in recent years we're seeing Christians grow more and more despised and loathed in society. I recognize that we are seeing a rise in the vocal atheist.
Dang those vocal atheists! They're getting uppity!
Next thing you know, they'll want the right to vote and sit at the front of a bus.
At times, certainly. Just as in recent years we're seeing Christians grow more and more despised and loathed in society. I recognize that we are seeing a rise in the vocal atheist.
Well thanks for that. What goes around comes around. The open question is whose persecution narrative is more credible. You are a huge majority. I don't see how a majority can be persecuted. That's why most evangelicals conceptualize themselves as a beleaguered and besieged minority on the one hand, while having organizations with names like "The Moral Majority" on the other, and fielding several presidential candidates with evangelical bonafides, a couple of whom are in fact actual fundamentalists (Cruz and Carson).
I am happy to see the structural prejudice against atheists crumbling ... I am not sure that it ever rose to the level of persecution except in certain individual cases. And we have always been a statistical minority, and are to this day. And yet here you are, in the majority with all other theists, in the majority religion (Christianity) and while a minority within Christianity, not one that fellow Christians are trying to excommunicate as heretical ... and yet somehow you are persecuted.
I think that people of color and other racial minorities, and yes, atheists, have been excluded way more than fundamentalists ever were. When I was a fundamentalist I never felt anything but the hegemony that my tribe actually enjoyed. Either things have changed massively since the 1990s or you guys are crying over spilt milk because you have to compete on a level playing ground in the marketplace of ideas -- and share a secular republic instead of pretending that it's not secular and that you're moving toward a dreamt-of theocracy.
Well thanks for that. What goes around comes around. The open question is whose persecution narrative is more credible. You are a huge majority. I don't see how a majority can be persecuted. That's why most evangelicals conceptualize themselves as a beleaguered and besieged minority on the one hand, while having organizations with names like "The Moral Majority" on the other, and fielding several presidential candidates with evangelical bonafides, a couple of whom are in fact actual fundamentalists (Cruz and Carson).
That's the thing....you guys love to talk about how we're the majority...but truth be told, people in this country that are active in the Christian faith and that actually look to the Bible for answers to life are really not a majority. The word "Christian" has become meaningless because the definition has been expanded so much to include anyone that remotely calls themselves Christian. Then, every time some knuckle-dragger idiot calling himself a Christian says something stupid, we all get blamed for it. Just like you also take the word of the post-modern "Christian" as Gospel. It's lunacy that all sorts of religions get lumped into one big one called "Christian".
Having said that, do you honestly believe that Christianity as a whole is not being attacked all the time in the media? Watch prime time tv and you will rarely see a Christian portrayed in a positive way.
That's the thing....you guys love to talk about how we're the majority...but truth be told, people in this country that are active in the Christian faith and that actually look to the Bible for answers to life are really not a majority. The word "Christian" has become meaningless because the definition has been expanded so much to include anyone that remotely calls themselves Christian.
I understand that, but it is common in my experience for evangelicals to talk about how they are the dwindling and besieged minority that upholds and "contends for the faith once and for all delivered to the saints" in a time of great apostasy ... and on the other hand, when pressed about why this is all god has to show for 2,000 years of church history, you want to minimize it by suddenly embracing all of Christianity as a vast sweeping phenomenon (although even that only buys you a 1/3 share globally).
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Then, every time some knuckle-dragger idiot calling himself a Christian says something stupid, we all get blamed for it.
I hear you. That was one of the cringeworthy things I hated when I was an evangelical, and getting clear of such mud-spatters was one of the benefits of leaving the faith, honestly. Although I had to eventually admit that it wasn't as much guilt by association as I wanted to imagine. It was simply people willing to take my own reasoning to its "logical" conclusions. In a way, they were actually more self-consistent than I was. The fact is that faulty reasoning that's not empirically anchored tends to lead to knuckle-dragging behavior.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Just like you also take the word of the post-modern "Christian" as Gospel. It's lunacy that all sorts of religions get lumped into one big one called "Christian".
I don't take liberal Christianity as anything other than a growing consensus of what Christian orthodoxy is now considered to be. Why is your subjective interpretation of what scripture means superior to theirs, particularly when it's losing ground to theirs?
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Having said that, do you honestly believe that Christianity as a whole is not being attacked all the time in the media? Watch prime time tv and you will rarely see a Christian portrayed in a positive way.
I don't see it as being attacked so much as not taken so seriously as parts of it want to be. Most people are indifferent, not hostile. Of course the media will go for the sensational angle, but does this reflect most people's attitudes? I don't think so. For the same reason the newstainment channels seem to be always teasing Trump's next rally to breathlessly await his latest outrageous pronouncements, and thus actually promoting more of the same ... they are always going to go with the funny or salacious or nefarious aspects of any story including ones about the religious (which just generally happens to be Christians in the West).
What you are really objecting to is that there are no longer taboos against criticizing or satirizing Christian foibles, or even admitting that such foibles exist. And taboos are all you had to protect yourselves in the marketplace of ideas, because you certainly don't have rational arguments or evidence.
I understand that, but it is common in my experience for evangelicals to talk about how they are the dwindling and besieged minority that upholds and "contends for the faith once and for all delivered to the saints" in a time of great apostasy ... and on the other hand, when pressed about why this is all god has to show for 2,000 years of church history, you want to minimize it by suddenly embracing all of Christianity as a vast sweeping phenomenon (although even that only buys you a 1/3 share globally).
If we are allowed to define who is and is not of our religion it's clear that the numbers are dwindling. And it's also clear that we are seeing a rise in persecution.
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I don't take liberal Christianity as anything other than a growing consensus of what Christian orthodoxy is now considered to be. Why is your subjective interpretation of what scripture means superior to theirs, particularly when it's losing ground to theirs?
I guess that's because we actually DO read the Bible and assume it's true. We actually believe the apostles who wrote the NT believed the OT was true. We actually believe that the NT accurately reflects the writings of the apostles. Liberal Christianity does not, in my view. You ask why our view is superior? It's because we actually recognize Scripture as being authoritative. We base our religion on the rule book, which doesn't change -- not whatever the culture and whatever is blowing through at the moment.
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I don't see it as being attacked so much as not taken so seriously as parts of it want to be. Most people are indifferent, not hostile. Of course the media will go for the sensational angle, but does this reflect most people's attitudes? I don't think so. For the same reason the newstainment channels seem to be always teasing Trump's next rally to breathlessly await his latest outrageous pronouncements, and thus actually promoting more of the same ... they are always going to go with the funny or salacious or nefarious aspects of any story including ones about the religious (which just generally happens to be Christians in the West).
What you are really objecting to is that there are no longer taboos against criticizing or satirizing Christian foibles, or even admitting that such foibles exist. And taboos are all you had to protect yourselves in the marketplace of ideas, because you certainly don't have rational arguments or evidence.
Perhaps. That may be some of it. But we are also seeing a growing movement against any and all expression of religion in public life.
You ask why our view is superior? It's because we actually recognize Scripture as being authoritative. We base our religion on the rule book, which doesn't change -- not whatever the culture and whatever is blowing through at the moment.
Don't think I don't have a soft spot for that point of view, as I came out of it. To this day, I only intellectually can see the point of liberal Christianity. In my mind, I can understand embracing the subjectivity of it, and allowing each person to come up with their own custom understanding of a "revelation" seen as highly symbolic and metaphorical. I can intellectually understand seeing the Ten Commandments as the Ten Principles or Ten Suggestions. But I don't see the point in it because I was conditioned to see Christianity as a means of arriving at Truth; I was personally interested in learning about and following Truth; and I left the faith because I did not see it as providing the promised Truth (its asserted Truth was neither descriptive of or predictive of reality and how reality actually plays out).
At times, certainly. Just as in recent years we're seeing Christians grow more and more despised and loathed in society. I recognize that we are seeing a rise in the vocal atheist.
Christians at large are becoming despised for the actions of certain members, like Westboro, and ones like the televangelists and prosperity preachers, along with the mindless persecution of gays and the attempt to dumb down our schools and science programs because they prefer 4000 yr old myths to hard science . Christianity is much like Islam in that the normal mainstream suffers for the actions of the radical nut wing .
Atheists are hated simply because they don't accept the beliefs of theists , and like any group that has been persecuted and silenced in the past, become vocal and unwilling to take the same crap from their persecutors once they can't be killed , fired or jailed for speaking their mind .
Christians at large are becoming despised for the actions of certain members, like Westboro, and ones like the televangelists and prosperity preachers, along with the mindless persecution of gays and the attempt to dumb down our schools and science programs because they prefer 4000 yr old myths to hard science . Christianity is much like Islam in that the normal mainstream suffers for the actions of the radical nut wing .
Atheists are hated simply because they don't accept the beliefs of theists , and like any group that has been persecuted and silenced in the past, become vocal and unwilling to take the same crap from their persecutors once they can't be killed , fired or jailed for speaking their mind .
I have never seen a Christian insult or criticize an atheist for simply not believing. Every time I've seen someone make a negative statement against an atheist it is a direct result of said atheist attacking our religion.
I have never seen a Christian insult or criticize an atheist for simply not believing. Every time I've seen someone make a negative statement against an atheist it is a direct result of said atheist attacking our religion.
Oh please . Atheists couldnt care less about people being Christian or Muslim or any other theist they want to be , except when they start trying to force their religious beliefs on others . And in today's society, where they now have a voice and legal standing , they gripe and take action when these folks do try to force their religion into society at large .
And you know this . And if you don't know that Christians, especially in small towns , look down on and try to save atheists simply for being atheist, you either need to get out more or take your blinders off
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