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The thing is, anti-discrimination laws already accomplish that.
The other option would be put some sort of government bureaucracy in place to track who does and doesn't use their religious beliefs to deny service to minorities. They could establish various guidelines for the acceptable percentage of Jews or whatever to turn away and require stores to keep accounting of how many they do. Perhaps issue quotas to these businesses to make sure that black people could buy food somewhere in a 50 mile radius of their home, but only if they tried 2 or 3 stores before finding one that had used up all of their approved religious-based failure to serve credits. Maybe crank up both state and federal offices with differing and conflicting standards just to make it more interesting...
No man...just as the oft proffered, "Then don't go into business" or "Just find another job". Carry that over. Just move to where the business climate is more acceptable. ..or, better still...Since you now see a market, open your own business.
How about we track Buyers...and make sure they spread out their purchases amongst all the different vendors of all "stripes"?
You know..."Equal Protection ".
These laws are very new. If it was so bad without regulations...all businesses would have tanked previously.
You have overlooked another factor: Few are as dedicated as the Religious...they give their freedom or their life rather than violate their Beliefs. So...force them, and they DO close up (like people have suggested)...then NOBODY gets anything from it. How is that better?
TRUTH IS: The claims of rampant discrimination are bogus. Business owners want to make money...99.999% of transactions will occur.
More people die in auto accidents than by drug overdoses...but you don't see vehicle operation criminalized like drugs are. Because "The Law" needs to look at the big picture.
YOU were the main one noting The Law in your posts. The laws relative to "Public Accommodations"..you even gave a link.
Luckily...those in the Underground Railroad, people like Rosa Parks, and those trying to help people under Sharia...had/have other ideas than your "you HAVE TO abide" claim. No...you DON'T have to abide. You only have to do that to avoid being found in violation...not necessarily to be fair or do what is "right".
Sure, you don't have to, but if you knowingly break the law, you can't very well complain about the consequences either. Sure, you may do it to make a point, or try to get the law changed or whatever. The one thing you can not do however, is say, as Jeff did, that you are being persecuted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
For most of history, signs that stated "We Reserve The Right To Refuse Entrance/Service To Anyone For Any Reason" were very common. MOF...you still see them.
For example...in the inner part of the city (Poughkeepsie, NY) where my club is located, there are gangs. Bloods, Crips & Latin Kings. I don't allow them in. And I don't do it based upon "Dress Code"...my club is a hole-in -wall...there is no dress code. But they all have identifying tattoos. If I see them...I tell them straight up that we don't allow gang members. Obviously...many are Black and Latino. They could make a legal discrimination claim. I don't care. All business people should be able to determine who they will or won't transact business with...just as the people can freely choose from the companies available to them as to who they will or won't buy from.
This is something I always note, but it is never addressed: A Buyer could go into a Business, fully intending to buy. Fill a cart with merchandise...and when getting to the checkout, upon seeing some workers they don't prefer, even outwardly proclaim, "I didn't know that (insert racial, gender, nationality epithet) worked here, I don't do business with scum like you!!"...leave the cart full of stuff, and walk out. All perfectly legal.
So much for "Equal Protection".
And in your case, you could easily use that reason and no one would care. They are gang members, and you don't want that element in your club. Who would? However, if you simply say, "Hey, you kind of look like you might possibly be a part of a gang because you are black, so please step outside," then you would open yourself up to be sued. If you know who they are, or they have tattoos that identify them, then you wouldn't have a problem. Not to mention, gang members are not the type to sue you if you p*** them off. I made that point earlier. You have the right to kick people out or whatever, if they are causing issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GldnRule
Note Zymer as respects the Utilities and other Monopolies...and hospitals and such.
Yea, so there are certain businesses that can discriminate, and certain ones that can't? How is that fair?
You also didn't answer my question though. You kind of answered the bit about utilities, but what about places like apartments? Should they be able to just turn away people for being black or gay? What about in small towns where people don't have the option to just "go somewhere else"? The town I grew up in for example. We were almost an hour from the nearby towns, so it was not viable for us to just "go somewhere else".
Telling a gay couple that they don't feel comfortable providing services to them because of religious reasons is hardly treating people like "sheet". If someone did me that way, guess what, I would take my business elsewhere. We've grown into a nation of wussies who rush to lawyer up because you got offended. Denying someone rights like hospital visits, housing, employment etc... sure that is clearly wrong, but heaven forbid if a Christian business owner doesn't want to get involved with a gay wedding.
Jeff, heres the trouble with claiming this is persecution. Persecution targets a specific group of people based on some identifying characteristic the persecutors are offended by. But ALL of your complaints here have been about Christian attempts to violate laws. You may not like that those laws prevent you from doing certain things, like discriminating against gays, but the fact that you want to violate a law that applies to everyone does not make it persecution towards you and yours. Based on this logic, the guy with the Corvette can claim that speeding laws persecute him because sportcar drivers want to drive faster, speed more and get more tickets .The law does not target you, it applies to everyone. Atheists cant discriminate against gays, and neither can Muslims, Hindus, Jews, or pagans. If your religion insists you violate society's laws by discriminating against any of these groups, that's a problem with your religion, not the law. Society makes laws like this that apply to ALL people , not just certain groups. Society does not target Christians, but society has no obligation to Christians to exempt them from complying with the same laws everyone else has to comply with because their religion teaches something contrary to society's laws. There were Christians who opposed civil rights protection for blacks. The law didn't target just Christian racists to be mean to them, the law outlawed EVERYONE from discriminating against blacks. For those conservative Christian groups that did and the few that still do think blacks should be treated differently and be allowed to be discriminated against , the emphasis from society was and is not CHRISTIAN racists , but RACISTS . Likewise regarding gays , the target is not CHRISTIAN homophobes , but HOMOPHOBES of any or no religious persuasion. And there is plenty of non religious hatred of gays by members of our society. When I was a teenager harassing and targeting gays , because that was just the culture around me in my youth, excepting thankfully my family, we didn't target them because they offended our religious sensibilities at 16 yrs old, we did it because we found it gross, perverted, wussy, and feminine. God and the Bible never figured in to my chunking eggs into gay guys cars .
You aren't persecuted anymore than the Hindus or Muslims that might hate the gays, or even the atheists. You are prevented by law from persecuting the gays, and because of your religion that rubs you the wrong way. That's an issue for your religion to deal with regarding why it insists on wanting to treat gays like second class people or worse , not for society to give you a free pass in violating the rights of other citizens.
You probably wont get a bit of this, but maybe someone else on the fence will. But it remains that your only example of persecution is that you cant discriminate against gays. But we have shown that even bigoted atheists cant either, so the religious persecution angle is shown to be false.
Sure, you don't have to, but if you knowingly break the law, you can't very well complain about the consequences either. Sure, you may do it to make a point, or try to get the law changed or whatever. The one thing you can not do however, is say, as Jeff did, that you are being persecuted.
And in your case, you could easily use that reason and no one would care. They are gang members, and you don't want that element in your club. Who would? However, if you simply say, "Hey, you kind of look like you might possibly be a part of a gang because you are black, so please step outside," then you would open yourself up to be sued. If you know who they are, or they have tattoos that identify them, then you wouldn't have a problem. Not to mention, gang members are not the type to sue you if you p*** them off. I made that point earlier. You have the right to kick people out or whatever, if they are causing issues.
Yea, so there are certain businesses that can discriminate, and certain ones that can't? How is that fair?
You also didn't answer my question though. You kind of answered the bit about utilities, but what about places like apartments? Should they be able to just turn away people for being black or gay? What about in small towns where people don't have the option to just "go somewhere else"? The town I grew up in for example. We were almost an hour from the nearby towns, so it was not viable for us to just "go somewhere else".
Why can't a person reasonably claim persecution by unfair laws?
Slaves shouldn't have said they were being persecuted if they were punished for trying to run away, just because The Law allowed slavery?
Laws are not always fair or just...they are simply "on the books".
For you to say I can reasonably refuse service to gang members is not so "cut and dried" legally.
If they are not causing any trouble or outwardly indicating they might...on what legal basis could I refuse them? The only argument I would have is their "potential" to cause problems based upon known data and statistics about gang members.
One could use the same argument on a racial/ethnic basis: Nonwhites only make up a quarter of the overall population, but represent 60% of the prison population. This is demonstrative of a proclivity toward criminality. They don't want violence, drug dealing, or theft in their business...so they won't allow them in to prevent that. They have statistical facts to back up their reasoning.
See how that is a "sticky wicket"?
How could one legally justify refusing service based on "potential problems"? You could find examples of criminals in any group to point to.
Private Businesses (not publicly traded or mostly government controlled), and Buyers in the public marketplace should have the FREEDOM to decide who they will or will not transact business with. For any reason they choose.
Once you FORCE people to buy or sell from who they would prefer not to, you have a problem.
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