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Old 03-28-2016, 01:15 PM
 
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Bart Ehrman, who, although an atheist, is a professor of religion who does believe that a real historical Jesus existed. I happen to disagree with him, but find his literature insightful nevertheless. His latest book, “Jesus Before the Gospels: How the Earliest Christians Remembered, Changed and Invented Their Stories of the Savior” applies contemporary memory science to the oral traditions of the early Christians.

Quotes:

"The Gospel of Matthew, which contains the Sermon on the Mount, was written around 85 C.E., a 50-year gap from when Jesus gave it. I started to wonder how is it possible for someone to know 50 years later what someone said at the Sermon on the Mount? I came to realize how implausible it is. I certainly think there are sayings in the Sermon on Mount that Jesus said, but the idea that he gave this sermon just the way it is laid down in Matthew is improbable. It is a memory rather than something that actually happened in Jesus’ life."


"The big point I make in the book is how Jesus is remembered is more important than the historical Jesus because the historical Jesus did not make history. He is a construct of scholars. The memory of Jesus affects 2 billion people today and they are not following the historical Jesus. They are following a Jesus they have in their minds. So the remembered Jesus is even more important than the historical Jesus"



Bart Ehrman examines how memories of Jesus morphed and changed - Religion News Service
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Old 03-28-2016, 02:20 PM
 
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That's true and unfortunate because the sermon on the mount is open to criticism. I won't go into that as Matt Dillahunty has done an analysis. I'll just say that I agree that Matthew cannot and does not accurately recall the sayings of the sermon. I believe there was no sermon. We get the same material more or less in Luke 'Sermon on a Level Place' but only the first half. The rest can be found distributed through the trip from Galilee to Peraea. How can that be?

I believe this is 'Q' material - a collection of Sayings that Matthew and Luke both used in their gospels. Not many of them appear in Mark, and the differing placing of the lamp or salt similes suggests this was synoptic material that Matthew added into his sermon.

If this is right, then Erhmann has some work to do, still, in understanding the gospels, without which he is stuffed in trying to sort the historical Jesus from the Gospel Jesus.
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Old 03-28-2016, 02:36 PM
 
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Yes we have quotes from synoptic gospel of Q which can from the oral tradition and which was confirmed by the Holy Spirit , which brings into remembrance the Words of God ...... See Christians have God to confirm and do not have to remember strictly from the nature of human mind , which the world without God would........Still there are truths of salvation and God`s purpose which Christians take literal , and other things which are parable which are not taken literal and then there is history which show God interaction with man
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Old 03-28-2016, 02:46 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
Yes we have quotes from synoptic gospel of Q which can from the oral tradition and which was confirmed by the Holy Spirit , which brings into remembrance the Words of God ...... See Christians have God to confirm and do not have to remember strictly from the nature of human mind , which the world without God would........Still there are truths of salvation and God`s purpose which Christians take literal , and other things which are parable which are not taken literal and then there is history which show God interaction with man
I am grateful for the confirmation of what I gathered...that many apologists believe that their own opinions and beliefs are inspired by God. That is why they cannot ever admit to being wrong as this would shatter the illusion.

I take the suggestion that Q is oral tradition sayings. It means (if one believes that) that it was not part of the synoptic gospel originally (Mark has almost none of it) and there was no sermon as claimed by Matthew and Luke or Mark would certainly have had it, too. Thus, even if we say that it was a collection of sayings that were put together later on (I seem to recall some sayings that echo Paul and his instructions on behaviour by Church members), the way it is used as a sermon (which is how Q, which I believe was a written collection of sayings and some doings, like the the specifics of the temptation and the question of the baptist, was written) the use of it as an event that never happened tells us something about Matthew and Luke and how they cannot be eyewitness, but are revising the original synoptic with their own material and 'Q', while Matthew also used the 'Great omission' material as does Mark. Which shows that Mark also adapted the synoptic original.

And of course, none of it appears in John.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 03-28-2016 at 03:02 PM..
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Old 03-28-2016, 03:50 PM
 
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The only TRUE teaching of Jesus can possibly be in HIS words only. Problem is, there are, practically, none. What we have available is hearsay at the best.
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