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Old 04-04-2016, 07:49 PM
 
6,115 posts, read 3,067,675 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
Thanks for taking the time to write it up.

In theory at least it seems your beliefs are far more evenhanded than what Christian hellthreat-oriented belief has become. You must be the Muslim equivalent of a liberal Christian.

Personally if what you believe were true, I would be inclined to be quite confident in a god who is not easily threatened by unbelief, particularly when it is held for honest reasons (not seeing supporting evidence despite an honest search for truth) and I believe such a deity would not hold that against me. On the other hand I would be out of luck anyway with a deity who is jealous and threatened by honest unbelief. I can't make a pretense of belief, and any god worth the label would see right through that pretense anyway (as you seem to indicate when talking about false / hypocritical Muslims).
I do have a slight difference of opinion here. And what I am going to say is a very general outline.

You find yourself in a hallway where there are two lines on the floor. There are a few books sitting on the table. You examine them, and pretty much they all summarize the same message that the red line will lead into fire, and the green line will lead you into a garden.

Say, you are not convinced by the message and take a choice to follow the red line. And this leads you into fire.

And what you are saying above is that it's the fault of fire that it burns my skin.


So the terms "a deity who is jealous and threatened" is a false pretense. In my opinion, it doesn't make a difference to God if you end up in hell. If he can give you life, he can give life to 7 billion others, and they can all choose to follow the red line. And it wouldn't make a difference to God. He can create a trillion more humans. Think about it, you did absolutely nothing that would have earned you the ability to see, hear, walk, run, speak, write, use intelligence, enjoy health etc. All of this was given to you.

So perhaps, it's not the God who is jealous. Perhaps its us? Because the choice is ours whether we want to make a loss or profit.

The shortest chapter in Quran is 103. It has only three verses; however, scholars have said that this is the entire summary of Quran. I suggest you read the translation sometime, and ponder upon it. Perhaps it will give you a better understanding of my point.
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Old 04-04-2016, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,823 posts, read 13,361,179 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
And what you are saying above is that it's the fault of fire that it burns my skin.
No, I'm not saying anything remotely like that.

By your doctrine, Allah is all powerful and can structure things anyway that he wants.

Part of the structure is that he has given me a mind and the ability to use it.

If he wants me to walk your metaphorical green line then he can readily provide convincing arguments and evidence to show me that this is the right way to walk.

He cannot complain if I am unconvinced or unclear because he is perfectly capable of making his instructions abundantly convincing and clear and compelling.

More than this: he doesn't have to set up arbitrary requirements. He can make BOTH lines safe to walk. The whole thing is a problem of his own making. Rather like if you build a house with dirt floors and complain that they can never be swept clean.

Also, Allah as you describe him is immoral and unbenevolent. He doesn't care whether or not I burn in hell and considers humans disposable, fungible commodities that he can make as many of as he wants. Now it may be that your theology is more honest than Christian theology, and just admits that the god you describe is indifferent to human suffering and therefore cruel. But it still describes a deity whose moral character is inferior even by human standards, and for whom one would have to prostitute their personal integrity to worship.
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Old 04-04-2016, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,501 posts, read 17,023,829 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
No, I'm not saying anything remotely like that.

By your doctrine, Allah is all powerful and can structure things anyway that he wants.

Part of the structure is that he has given me a mind and the ability to use it.

If he wants me to walk your metaphorical green line then he can readily provide convincing arguments and evidence to show me that this is the right way to walk.

He cannot complain if I am unconvinced or unclear because he is perfectly capable of making his instructions abundantly convincing and clear and compelling.

More than this: he doesn't have to set up arbitrary requirements. He can make BOTH lines safe to walk. The whole thing is a problem of his own making. Rather like if you build a house with dirt floors and complain that they can never be swept clean.

Also, Allah as you describe him is immoral and unbenevolent. He doesn't care whether or not I burn in hell and considers humans disposable, fungible commodities that he can make as many of as he wants. Now it may be that your theology is more honest than Christian theology, and just admits that the god you describe is indifferent to human suffering and therefore cruel. But it still describes a deity whose moral character is inferior even by human standards, and for whom one would have to prostitute their personal integrity to worship.
That is one way to look at it.

To add to your opinion even more we have no required teaching, not anything that even resembles Sunday School (Some areas that have a large Muslim population might offer such)

But over all it is our own responsibility to seek out our own sources of learning. We do not get force fed to believe anything. It is all about personal responsibility and free choices, which carry with them the consequences of our choices.

Allah(swt) could have created us as obedient cattle and herd us on the path to heaven Protecting us from ever being able to approach the road to hell and constantly giving us solid prove that we are on the path to heaven.


But we are created with free will we get faced with as many reasons to believe God(swt) does not exist as we do reasons to believe he does. We are not going to get undeniable, irrefutable proof God(swt) exists as that would render it virtually impossible to not believe. for all things to be truly our own choice and the result of our own searching we must be faced with equal temptations to choose either.

It is all about free choice and to be searchers. Nothing is handed to us, we have to look. To have free choice we must exercise it and begin by seeker what our chices are.

If we choose not to seek, that is our choice. No matter what we choose we alone will receive the results of our choices. It is our responsibility to learn what the results will be, before we act.

Last edited by Woodrow LI; 04-04-2016 at 10:06 PM..
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Old 04-04-2016, 11:14 PM
 
6,115 posts, read 3,067,675 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
No, I'm not saying anything remotely like that.

By your doctrine, Allah is all powerful and can structure things anyway that he wants.

Part of the structure is that he has given me a mind and the ability to use it.

If he wants me to walk your metaphorical green line then he can readily provide convincing arguments and evidence to show me that this is the right way to walk.

He cannot complain if I am unconvinced or unclear because he is perfectly capable of making his instructions abundantly convincing and clear and compelling.

More than this: he doesn't have to set up arbitrary requirements. He can make BOTH lines safe to walk. The whole thing is a problem of his own making. Rather like if you build a house with dirt floors and complain that they can never be swept clean.

Also, Allah as you describe him is immoral and unbenevolent. He doesn't care whether or not I burn in hell and considers humans disposable, fungible commodities that he can make as many of as he wants. Now it may be that your theology is more honest than Christian theology, and just admits that the god you describe is indifferent to human suffering and therefore cruel. But it still describes a deity whose moral character is inferior even by human standards, and for whom one would have to prostitute their personal integrity to worship.
To add to what Woodrow said;

Does a carpenter ask a chair BEFORE whittling it as to how should I create you?
Does a programmer ask the program BEFORE writing the code as how to code you?

The creator simply creates it - without the will of creation.

You said, God could make us walk safe on both lines. How about he had created us and thrown straight into hell? Or if he had made both lines lead to trouble? He is the creator and could have done it anyway he wanted it - and we could have done nothing about it. We are the chair and the program - we are not the carpenter or the software developer.

So then, what would have been the purpose of our creation if God had made us by billions, gave us intelligence and a choice based on free will but he would have thrown each and everyone us in hell or heaven?

The fact is, we are here so deal with it.

We keep raising a red flag and judge God to be jealous and cruel for OUR choices that may lead us into trouble.
And on the other hand, we don't have a single word of praise or thank God if he enters us into paradise.

Philosophically speaking, perhaps we can agree that the difference of opinion between an Atheist and a believer is that Athiest judges the God, while a believer believes that he is being judged by God?
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:59 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,924,575 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
...and you think that a book, edited in the 17th century from 16th century translations of 8000 contradictory copies of 4th century documents that claim to be copies of lost letters that were written in the 1st century is better?
Then you would like the Concordant Literal translation of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures since it went straight to the oldest originals we have.
And please don't tell me we don't have any of the actual originals. When a Hebrew "Old Testament" would get worn, the scribes would copy that and then destroy the original. You can read about the Concordant Version here: biblical studies: HOW WE GOT OUR BIBLE
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Old 04-05-2016, 05:08 AM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,924,575 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
That is one way to look at it.

To add to your opinion even more we have no required teaching, not anything that even resembles Sunday School (Some areas that have a large Muslim population might offer such)

But over all it is our own responsibility to seek out our own sources of learning. We do not get force fed to believe anything. It is all about personal responsibility and free choices, which carry with them the consequences of our choices.

Allah(swt) could have created us as obedient cattle and herd us on the path to heaven Protecting us from ever being able to approach the road to hell and constantly giving us solid prove that we are on the path to heaven.


But we are created with free will we get faced with as many reasons to believe God(swt) does not exist as we do reasons to believe he does. We are not going to get undeniable, irrefutable proof God(swt) exists as that would render it virtually impossible to not believe. for all things to be truly our own choice and the result of our own searching we must be faced with equal temptations to choose either.

It is all about free choice and to be searchers. Nothing is handed to us, we have to look. To have free choice we must exercise it and begin by seeker what our chices are.

If we choose not to seek, that is our choice. No matter what we choose we alone will receive the results of our choices. It is our responsibility to learn what the results will be, before we act.
We are created with wills. But our will is not free. It is, what the Bible calls "the will of the flesh."

Joh_1:13 who were begotten, not of bloods, neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man, but of God."
Eph_2:3 (among whom we also all behaved ourselves once in the lusts of our flesh, doing the will of the flesh and of the comprehension, and were, in our nature, children of indignation, even as the rest),

Notice that the Jews who became believers did not do so by their will but rather by the will of God Who had to overcome their stubborn wills.

The flesh is at enmity to God and is not subject to God's law (Romans 8:7) and so, since "all avoid Him," God has to intercept us and cause us to drop our enmity to Him.

Therefore, if one searches for God, it is due to God overwhelming their stubborn wills and causing them to search for Him.

Muslims in Muslim countries do not have a will that is free from coercion. The young person must learn the Koran and if that young person resists or becomes a believer in Jesus, it will not bode well for that person. The fear of getting killed or ostracized in a Muslim country for not going along with the status quo does not lend to a will that is free.
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Old 04-05-2016, 05:20 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,821,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Then you would like the Concordant Literal translation of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures since it went straight to the oldest originals we have.
And please don't tell me we don't have any of the actual originals. When a Hebrew "Old Testament" would get worn, the scribes would copy that and then destroy the original. You can read about the Concordant Version here: biblical studies: HOW WE GOT OUR BIBLE
Thank you Edgar. When you are able to differentiate fact from fiction, do come back and talk to us.
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Old 04-05-2016, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,501 posts, read 17,023,829 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
We are created with wills. But our will is not free. It is, what the Bible calls "the will of the flesh."

Joh_1:13 who were begotten, not of bloods, neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man, but of God."
Eph_2:3 (among whom we also all behaved ourselves once in the lusts of our flesh, doing the will of the flesh and of the comprehension, and were, in our nature, children of indignation, even as the rest),

Notice that the Jews who became believers did not do so by their will but rather by the will of God Who had to overcome their stubborn wills.

The flesh is at enmity to God and is not subject to God's law (Romans 8:7) and so, since "all avoid Him," God has to intercept us and cause us to drop our enmity to Him.

Therefore, if one searches for God, it is due to God overwhelming their stubborn wills and causing them to search for Him.

Muslims in Muslim countries do not have a will that is free from coercion. The young person must learn the Koran and if that young person resists or becomes a believer in Jesus, it will not bode well for that person. The fear of getting killed or ostracized in a Muslim country for not going along with the status quo does not lend to a will that is free.
There are 49 very different Muslim Majority nations and 45 of them combined contain only about 25% of the world's Muslims, To understand how MOST of the world's Muslims live you need to visit the 6 Nations were nearly all of the Wold's Muslims live,Indonesia, India,Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia, China (In 2 they are a very small minority, India China) but still have more Muslims those 2 then any of the word's Muslim matority Nations except the largest 4.)

Yes children that have wealthy parents often send children to private teachers to learn the Qur'an. What is taught is the proper Arabic of the Qur'an and how to read the words. It usually takes 3 years. Children are not faught any meaning of the Qur'an we each have to learn that on our own and we are not to accept any person's interpretation as being the "True" interpretations. We each must search, evaluate and not believe anything unless we our self have found reason to believe it.
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Old 04-05-2016, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,823 posts, read 13,361,179 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
But we are created with free will we get faced with as many reasons to believe God(swt) does not exist as we do reasons to believe he does.
Yes it appears that both Christians and Muslims end up reverting to this free will argument to justify human suffering.

I don't know if Islam makes the same tri-omni claim for god's characteristics as Christendom (all knowing, all powerful, all benevolent) but I am pretty sure that it does. Which means you have to construct the same theodicy as Christians to get around the logical impossibility of a tri-omni god to coexist with / permit / allow / author human suffering. And the only way you can even appear to do it (while still not doing it) is to make this free will claim.

But it is not a question of free will that I am making. I can still be free to "reject" god even if he fully and unambiguously reveals himself. And since god is "merciful and kind" he will not want me to suffer, temporally or eternally, and if it is his will that all should come to knowledge of the truth then his will, being all powerful, would have to be done. By definition. And the bare minimum there would be to make sure that all creatures he loves, has the information they need to be right with him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
We are not going to get undeniable, irrefutable proof God(swt) exists as that would render it virtually impossible to not believe. for all things to be truly our own choice and the result of our own searching we must be faced with equal temptations to choose either.

It is all about free choice and to be searchers. Nothing is handed to us, we have to look. To have free choice we must exercise it and begin by seeker what our choices are.
Except that many, myself included, have been diligent and interested seekers and have found absolutely nothing. You are assuming that those who seek, inevitably find. Which ignores the inconvenient truth that people often make a lifetime of seeking, and find nothing. Mother Theresa for instance sought god her whole life, had not felt his presence in her life since her youth, and judged herself a fraud and a failure in this regard. It would be easy for you to say that she failed to look in the right place ... Islam ... for god. She failed in her responsibility. Meanwhile a Christian would say the very same thing about a Muslim seeker in the same situation.

Others would say that my insistence on accumulating at least some probability for god based on sound epistemology causes me to reject religious faith as a discovery mechanism and that is also my own fault. Well ... I can't pretend to believe what I don't believe. And if I COULD pretend, a la Pascal's Wager, any god worth the label would see right through it anyway.

So I guess that is how much, probably most, of the world's population gets consigned to various versions of hell, despite a supposedly merciful and loving deity who wants to save the people that he himself has chosen to condemn.
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Old 04-05-2016, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,823 posts, read 13,361,179 times
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Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
To add to what Woodrow said;

Does a carpenter ask a chair BEFORE whittling it as to how should I create you?
Does a programmer ask the program BEFORE writing the code as how to code you?

The creator simply creates it - without the will of created.
Yes but that's not what's under question here. Allah, being Allah, can do it any way he pleases. But to be a good moral actor he has to make his claims upon his creation evident, or he cannot ethically punish for non-compliance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
You said, God could make us walk safe on both lines. How about he had created us and thrown straight into hell? Or if he had made both lines lead to trouble? He is the creator and could have done it anyway he wanted it - and we could have done nothing about it. We are the chair and the program - we are not the carpenter or the software developer.
Sure ... but he has chosen -- from an infinite palate of choices -- to structure it in such a way that a certain percentage of humans are basically guaranteed eternal punishment. It tells you something about his character and nature that he has done it that way, as opposed to any number of other ways he might have done it. You said it yourself -- humans are nothing to god. He can make a trillion of them anytime he wants. He doesn't care, you said, if they go to heaven or to hell. Perhaps this is a difference in how Christianity and Islam sees the "one true god" or maybe it is just how you see it, I don't know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
Philosophically speaking, perhaps we can agree that the difference of opinion between an Atheist and a believer is that Athiest judges the God, while a believer believes that he is being judged by God?
Not at all, actually. If I believed in the god you obviously believe in then I would suck it up with the best of them and do the prescribed rituals and so forth and do whatever bowing and scraping I had to do to escape eternal torture and enter into eternal bliss.

It is, rather, a question of presenting a credible case for the existence of your deity in the first place. The world is no longer a place where either Muslims or Christians can assert their god concepts on the tip of a sword. You must present a convincing case and substantiate it. You can't and won't.
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