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Old 04-17-2016, 07:39 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Halal is not a Sacrifice.We do not offer any living creature as as a sacrifice to Allah. The purpose of Halal is that is the method Allaah(swt) has revealed for the purpose of providing safe meat. There are several reasons why most forms of stunning are not permitted. The main one being because it often puts needless stress upon the animal and there is no indication it serves any benefit. Also it can cause the heart to stop beating which will result in blood remaining in the body ruining the meat. When done properly .the animal is brain-dead almost immediately and the only brain activity is the brain stem which controls the autonomic nervous system, such as heart beat but has no pain receptors of consciousness. (very often commercial slaughter-house halal is not halal) many Muslims including myself will not eat "Halal meat from a chain grocery store for that reason. Germany is the only country I know of that actually did an in-depth study of the brain activity in 1978 The Halal Slaughter Controvesy

However, a new form of stunning developed in New Zealand seems to be able to do so and still retain sufficient heart activity to keep t meat halal(edible) Many Muslims in New Zeeland have found thit to be acceptable.

Contrary to popular belief Halal slaughter need not be done by a Muslim, it can be done by any adherent of one of the Abrahamic faiths (Jew, Sabeean, Christian or Muslim) provided they follow the proper procedure. Jewish Kosher Meat is also Halal for Muslims.

The words to be said during the slaughter are Bismillallah ir Rahman ir Rahemm (in the name of God, the provider, the most merciful) or even just a simple Bismillallahi (In the name of God) it can be said in the person's native Language, (The prayer said by a Jewish Rabbi is also acceptable)but if a Muslim is doing the slaughter it must be said in Arabic
Of course Halal is technically "not a sacrifice" in the same way that Kosher "is not a sacrifice"... since neither of the ritualistic practices are aware of the reasons why they do wha they do, nor do any of them often "offer the life" of the animal to (or back to) some supposed deity that they deem important to feel as if sending something to by it. I was explaining that they share pretty much every other aspect (Abraham's sacrificial rituals, the sacrifice of following the covenants, a believed or verbal honorification of the god, etc).

If is not "just a safe-meat practice," Muslims who don't follow (or believe in) Halal as the safest most Heavenly-loyal meat practice are often believed to be explicitly less religious by those who believe in and practice such (likely pre-Muhammadian) rituals.

Thank you for letting me know some details you have come across.

So the application of Halal meat is not as racist/factionist as that of Kosher wine, it is still discriminatory as factions and discriminations based on Abrahamism instead of just "specific major vague religion".

So the Halal application is more about an Abrahamist removing as much blood as possible from an animal, and minimizing the animals pain and suffering (which often taints and toughens meat) along with that, before cooking and consuming it, rather then whether or not they are bashed over the head or not... but my idea that they would still frown on the bullet to the brain method for stunning is still correct, since a bullet to the brain would surely spread more man-cow-like diseases by mixing more blood/brains with the rest of the meat.

Could you link me any "legitimate" omni-denominational Muslim "canon" (perhaps the Quran) that says this stuff about the "completely not sacrificial" ritual; I'd especially by interested in the mandatory aspect of speaking in Arabic for Muslims during this process
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Old 04-17-2016, 07:41 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoCardinals View Post
I would say, the OP and many other critics of Halal method are either not even aware of, or will come up with all different kinds of justifications as to what happens with Dolphins and Whales in Faroe Island, Denmark.
What does Denmark allow to happen to the Dolphins and Whales it's people catch? I won't accept it if it isn't good, taking their animal status into account.
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Old 04-17-2016, 07:43 PM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
Where I used to live people would occasionally find decapitated chickens, or maybe just the heads, I forget, in the wooded area near our reservoir. We were next to a city in which a lot of Caribbean immigrants lived and it was probably part of a voudon or santeria ritual.

I don't think satanists cut off animal heads except in bad movies, as someone said.
It could have also been that they just didn't want to eat the heads nor put them in their garbage.
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Old 04-17-2016, 08:43 PM
 
Location: Elsewhere
88,298 posts, read 84,311,090 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
It could have also been that they just didn't want to eat the heads nor put them in their garbage.
So they took them a couple miles away out of the rundown city where they live to dispose of them at a wooded reservoir because the thought of chicken heads in the garbage was disdainful to them? There were other items around pretty much indicating that it was a ritual. It's not that uncommon for people from the Caribbean to to bring their religions with them. My friend's mother was born in Cuba, and while they are Catholic, she was still throwing those black stones under her kids' beds to keep the evil spirits away.
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Old 04-17-2016, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,501 posts, read 17,025,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuminousTruth View Post
Of course Halal is technically "not a sacrifice" in the same way that Kosher "is not a sacrifice"... since neither of the ritualistic practices are aware of the reasons why they do wha they do, nor do any of them often "offer the life" of the animal to (or back to) some supposed deity that they deem important to feel as if sending something to by it. I was explaining that they share pretty much every other aspect (Abraham's sacrificial rituals, the sacrifice of following the covenants, a believed or verbal honorification of the god, etc).

If is not "just a safe-meat practice," Muslims who don't follow (or believe in) Halal as the safest most Heavenly-loyal meat practice are often believed to be explicitly less religious by those who believe in and practice such (likely pre-Muhammadian) rituals.

Thank you for letting me know some details you have come across.

So the application of Halal meat is not as racist/factionist as that of Kosher wine, it is still discriminatory as factions and discriminations based on Abrahamism instead of just "specific major vague religion".

So the Halal application is more about an Abrahamist removing as much blood as possible from an animal, and minimizing the animals pain and suffering (which often taints and toughens meat) along with that, before cooking and consuming it, rather then whether or not they are bashed over the head or not... but my idea that they would still frown on the bullet to the brain method for stunning is still correct, since a bullet to the brain would surely spread more man-cow-like diseases by mixing more blood/brains with the rest of the meat.

Could you link me any "legitimate" omni-denominational Muslim "canon" (perhaps the Quran) that says this stuff about the "completely not sacrificial" ritual; I'd especially by interested in the mandatory aspect of speaking in Arabic for Muslims during this process
Working backwards. What I should have said it is sunnah for a Muslim to say Bismillah in Arabic. No sin if they don't but should be done if they speak Arabic. (Most Muslims do not speak Arabic)

As for the Muslim view on animal sacrifice

Quote:
Islam, however, broke away from this longstanding tradition of appeasing an "angry God" and instead demanded personal sacrifice and submission as the only way to die before death and reach "fana’" or "extinction in Allah." The notion of "vicarious atonement of sin" (absolving one's sins through the blood of another) is nowhere to be found in the Qur'an. Neither is the idea of gaining favor by offering the life of another to Allah. In Islam, all that is demanded as a sacrifice is one's personal willingness to submit one's ego and individual will to Allah.

One only has to look at how the Qur'an treats this subject, to see a marked difference regarding sacrifice and whether or not Allah is appeased by blood. The Qur'anic account of the sacrifice of Isma`il ultimately speaks against blood atonement. Allah says: (Then when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "Oh my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "Oh my father! Do As thou art commanded: Thou wilt find me, if Allah so wills one practicing patience and constancy!" So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice), We called out to him, "Oh Abraham! Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" Thus indeed do We reward those who do right. For this was obviously a trial and We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice.) (As-Safat 37: 102-107)

Notice that the Qur'an never says that Allah told Abraham to kill (sacrifice) his son. Though subtle, this is very important, for the moral lesson is very different from that which appears in the Bible. Here, it teaches us that Abraham had a dream in which he saw himself slaughtering his son. Abraham believed the dream and thought that the dream was from Allah, but the Qur'an never says that the dream was from Allah. However, in Abraham and Isma`il's willingness to make the ultimate sacrifice—Abraham of his son, Isma`il of his own life—they are able to transcend notions of self and false attachment to the material realm, thus removing a veil between themselves and Allah, enabling Allah's mercy to descend upon them as the Spirit of Truth and illuminate them with divine wisdom (thus preventing a miscarriage of justice and once and for all correcting the false notion of vicarious atonement of sin).

For, certainly, Allah, the Ever Merciful, Most Compassionate, would never ask a father to go against His command of "thou shall not kill" and kill his own son in order to be accepted by Him. For the Qur'an teaches us that Allah never advocates evil (see 7:28 and 16:90) and that only Satan advocates evil and vice (24:21). The notion that Allah would want us to do an immoral act runs counter to Allah's justice.

As far as the yearly tradition that has followed this event (that is, the sacrificing of a ram to commemorate Abraham and Isma`il's great self sacrifice), we must understand it and the Qur'anic versus that pertain to animal sacrifice, in relation to the time and place circumstances under which these revelations were received and how people were trying to make a personal sacrifice by sharing their limited means of survival with the poorer members of their community.
The Concept of Animal Sacrifice in Islam
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Old 04-19-2016, 10:23 PM
 
Location: Del Rio, TN
39,810 posts, read 26,408,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soUlwounD View Post
Why halal-slaugters should be allowed for the religious reasons but same done by satanists is a crime?

There where it is a crime of course...

I am not speaking for satanist and I am not a one but I don't understand hypocrite society which claims that it is total ok to cut throw from animal and let it bleed to death if religious matter but when satanist are doing that it is a crime..

It's wrong to prolong the death of an animal for any reason. We as a matter of common decency have a moral obligation to make the death of any animal, especially ones raised for food, as humane, quick and painless as possible/practical. "Halal" is just one more excuse to cause and glorify pain and suffering, all in the name of a barbaric political system. It should be banned in any civilized country. And yes, I'm aware that Islam isn't the only religion to practice ritual torture of animals.
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Old 04-19-2016, 11:24 PM
 
Location: Logan Township, Minnesota
15,501 posts, read 17,025,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
It's wrong to prolong the death of an animal for any reason. We as a matter of common decency have a moral obligation to make the death of any animal, especially ones raised for food, as humane, quick and painless as possible/practical. "Halal" is just one more excuse to cause and glorify pain and suffering, all in the name of a barbaric political system. It should be banned in any civilized country. And yes, I'm aware that Islam isn't the only religion to practice ritual torture of animals.
Halal is so far the most humane method of slaughter practiced. It is much faster than stunning and if done properly the animal is brain dead and not able to feel pain although the autonomic nervous system will remain active for several minutes and provide maximum drainage of the blood.

slaughter is never pleasant and it does involve the killing of a living creature. Halal Slaughter entails much more than the killing of the animal. Some requirements are that an animal raised for slaughter bust be treated with utmost kindness and never experience fear or stress along with having plenty of room for free grazing and exercise. It is to be feed the best food available. the slaughter is to be done out of sight of any other animals, the animal must be fully relaxed and should not see the knife the cutting must be done with one fast motion and completed in less than 2 seconds. If done properly the animal will be brain dead before the brain has time to feel pain. When both carotid arteries are cut with the required speed blood flow to the brain stops almost instantly and causes death even faster then a gun shot to the head.
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Old 04-24-2016, 03:42 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
So they took them a couple miles away out of the rundown city where they live to dispose of them at a wooded reservoir because the thought of chicken heads in the garbage was disdainful to them? There were other items around pretty much indicating that it was a ritual. It's not that uncommon for people from the Caribbean to to bring their religions with them. My friend's mother was born in Cuba, and while they are Catholic, she was still throwing those black stones under her kids' beds to keep the evil spirits away.
Maybe their were living there illegally. Or it could be a woodsmen chicken cult. You never know these days and in the past.
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Old 04-24-2016, 03:50 AM
 
Location: City-Data Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodrow LI View Post
Working backwards. What I should have said it is sunnah for a Muslim to say Bismillah in Arabic. No sin if they don't but should be done if they speak Arabic. (Most Muslims do not speak Arabic)

As for the Muslim view on animal sacrifice

Quote:
Islam, however, broke away from this longstanding tradition of appeasing an "angry God" and instead demanded personal sacrifice and submission as the only way to die before death and reach "fana’" or "extinction in Allah." The notion of "vicarious atonement of sin" (absolving one's sins through the blood of another) is nowhere to be found in the Qur'an. Neither is the idea of gaining favor by offering the life of another to Allah. In Islam, all that is demanded as a sacrifice is one's personal willingness to submit one's ego and individual will to Allah.

One only has to look at how the Qur'an treats this subject, to see a marked difference regarding sacrifice and whether or not Allah is appeased by blood. The Qur'anic account of the sacrifice of Isma`il ultimately speaks against blood atonement. Allah says: (Then when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "Oh my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "Oh my father! Do As thou art commanded: Thou wilt find me, if Allah so wills one practicing patience and constancy!" So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice), We called out to him, "Oh Abraham! Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" Thus indeed do We reward those who do right. For this was obviously a trial and We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice.) (As-Safat 37: 102-107)

Notice that the Qur'an never says that Allah told Abraham to kill (sacrifice) his son. Though subtle, this is very important, for the moral lesson is very different from that which appears in the Bible. Here, it teaches us that Abraham had a dream in which he saw himself slaughtering his son. Abraham believed the dream and thought that the dream was from Allah, but the Qur'an never says that the dream was from Allah. However, in Abraham and Isma`il's willingness to make the ultimate sacrifice—Abraham of his son, Isma`il of his own life—they are able to transcend notions of self and false attachment to the material realm, thus removing a veil between themselves and Allah, enabling Allah's mercy to descend upon them as the Spirit of Truth and illuminate them with divine wisdom (thus preventing a miscarriage of justice and once and for all correcting the false notion of vicarious atonement of sin).

For, certainly, Allah, the Ever Merciful, Most Compassionate, would never ask a father to go against His command of "thou shall not kill" and kill his own son in order to be accepted by Him. For the Qur'an teaches us that Allah never advocates evil (see 7:28 and 16:90) and that only Satan advocates evil and vice (24:21). The notion that Allah would want us to do an immoral act runs counter to Allah's justice.

As far as the yearly tradition that has followed this event (that is, the sacrificing of a ram to commemorate Abraham and Isma`il's great self sacrifice), we must understand it and the Qur'anic versus that pertain to animal sacrifice, in relation to the time and place circumstances under which these revelations were received and how people were trying to make a personal sacrifice by sharing their limited means of survival with the poorer members of their community.
The Concept of Animal Sacrifice in Islam
Thanks for the link, but the Abraham story in Islam continues to be as vague and interpretable as ever. Both their willingness to kill a human and willingness to be killed for a God-idea are praised.

If willingness is praised, then most intelligent humans surmise that will and motive lead to action. Lambs to the slaughter house.
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Old 04-26-2016, 05:12 PM
 
7,577 posts, read 5,305,884 times
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Please see Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye, Inc. v. Hialeah, 508 U.S. 520 (1993), wherein the Supreme Court ruled against the city of Hialeah Florida that attempted to prosecute members of the Church of Lukumi Babalu Aye, ritually sacrificed animals as part of their Santeria (Hispanic version of Voodoo) religious practices.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church...ity_of_Hialeah
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