Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
So when Adam and Eve ate the apple, thereby causing the downfall of the entire human species, was that a completely unfettered choice to sin, or did God know that was going to happen?
God actually set Adam and Eve up. He created them flesh, knowing full well in advance that "the flesh is not able to please God and is not subject to God's law" (Romans 8) and He made Adam soulish knowing full well in advance that the soulish one is not capable of understanding that which is of the spirit of God (1 Cor.2:14).
And God created the serpent to be super crafty to delude the woman.
See God give man free will to turn to Him and be free from the hopelessness of the world brings ........ See there is this celestial dark spirit which if people do not have God to push these dark spirit away then they will claim the undefended people are theirs and will manipulated people which have free will to reject God , as these dark spirits could over take peoples will power , which many people cannot control ........ Don`t believe that , which you must have a dark spirit who you agree with , as these dark spirit need you to agree with which is their specialty
Because it is predestined that some sin and some call out the sinner.
True story:
My friend's son was very young. He did something worthy of discipline. He told his dad: "But dad, God made me do it." and his dad replied, "Yes, and God is going to make me discipline you."
This is an excellent example of a hypocritical gittb...
Reading the arguments of Christians concerning why God permits suffering and evil, I have noticed that the usual 'get out of jail' card is that God wants us to act as agents of free will and not merely be puppets whose actions can be completely manipulated by him. But if more people would realise that free will (as commonly defined by the Christian) does not make any sense, where would that leave Christianity in regions of the world where people are educated enough to understand basic science and philosophy?
As an atheist, I think that the absolute knock down argument against Christianity (excepting Calvinism) is the fact that salvation depends upon being able to exercise free will, whereas science tells us that free will cannot exist. It also means that suffering and evil is caused by a flaw that is inherent to God's initial design; as opposed to being caused by the 'fallen' nature of mankind. The unavoidable conclusion of this is that, although God could still exist, he cannot be the omnibenevolent God of the New Testament. He would have to be either an indifferent God (such as the type in which deists believe) or a malevolent one.
People who believe in free will seem to have the idea that the matter contained inside the human cranium has some kind of magical property, which allows it to be the only variety of matter in the universe that is unbound to any known laws of physics. Therefore the only kind of macroscopic event that can occur without any prior causes is in the case of a human being exercising their 'free will' to make a decision. I've discussed free will with many people, both theist and atheist, and none of its proponents can give any kind of coherent account of how free will operates within a materialistic universe. Usually they point to some kind of quantum indeterminism, without realising that 'random will' is not the same as 'free will'.
I would like to see atheists focus more on the issue of free will and discussing it with their friends and family who are Christians (without necessarily even referencing God himself), because that is the one tenet of Christianity that, if weakened, could bring down the entire house of cards. If free will does not exist in any meaningful sense, then it is purely a lottery whether one comes to accept Christ as one's saviour. If free will does not exist, then nobody can ultimately be blamed for their actions, and what it means to be a 'good Christian' is merely that you happened to have the luck to benefit from good genetics and good environmental influences when you were growing up.
There is another model of free will which is advanced by those who call themselves 'compatibilists'. This basically means that free will exists, but you have to redefine the term so that it refers to something that isn't physically impossible. So you have free will because your decisions are complex and cannot in practice be predicted, due to the fact that too many variables would have to be taken into account. You have free will because you would be capable of acting differently under slightly different circumstances, although not the exact same ones. In my opinion, this version of 'free will' is redundant, except as an act of semantical legerdemain - artfully changing the definition and hoping that the 'little people' won't notice what you have done and will continue to believe that they are the sole authors of their own destiny.
I'm interested in the thoughts of both theists and atheists on this subject, which is why I'm posting in the main religion forum.
What is free will? "The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion."-Google search
A Christian perspective. Let's say for the sake of argument that God exists and the Bible is inspired. I'll include scriptures not to proselytize but simply to show what can be gleaned from the Bible.
The Bible says we are made in his image-Genesis 1:26. This means humans have the capacity to display love and justice. It stands to reason that the qualities we have in common aren't just limited to love and justice but includes other qualities such as free will.
In general, we have, to a great degree, the capacity to determine our future. The Bible encourages us to choose "life." If God exists and created us thus knowing what is beneficial and what isn't then it follows that what he provides in the way of guidance would lead to life (see Isaiah 48:18).
Whether we succeed or not is not determined by fate. It's our willingness to work at whatever we set out to accomplish (Ecclesiastes 9:10 and Proverbs 21:5)
While the Bible teaches that he is almighty and no one constrains him but himself it also does teach that he exercises his power selectively (it's not reasonable to think that an omnipotent being would be unable to regulate his power, to exercise free will. A common definition of omnipotence is, " Unlimited in power; able to do anything"-Google search). This can be seen in such Bible verses as Isaiah 42:14 which show the restraint he has shown in dealing with various peoples in the Bible. The Bible also teaches he restrains himself in tolerating wickedness at least for the time being-Psalms 37:10,11.
It's interesting that the earliest Christians including the early "church fathers" fluent in the Greek language and thus intimately familiar with the Greek Scriptures believed in free will and not predestination or that God somehow was the creator of evil (the below is not exhaustive but representative of early Christian thought):
Justin Martyr wrote 135-165 A.D. 1:177 "And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions..." 1:177 "The words cited above, David uttered 1500 years before Christ... But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain." 1:177 most of the page. The First Apology of Justin 43, 44.
Athenagoras 177 A.D. 2:142 "Just as with men, who have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice (for you would not either honour the good or punish the bad, unless and vice and virtue were in their own power" A Plea for Christians 24
Hippolytus, disciple of Irenaeus and Bishop of Portus 220-236 A.D. 5:152 "[Jesus] might exhibit His own manhood as an aim for all men. And that by Himself in person He might prove that God made nothing evil, and that man possesses the capacity of self-determination, inasmuch as he is able to will and not to will, and is endued with the power to do both." Refutat. of All Heresies 10:29
Clement of Alexandria 193-217 A.D. 2:319 "Now the devil, being possessed of freewill, was able both to repent and to steal;" 2:239 "So in no respect is God the author of evil. But since free choice and inclination originate sins" Stromata Book 1 ch.17. vol.2:239 "For to take fever is involuntary; but when one takes fever through his own fault, from excess, we blame him. Inasmuch, then as evil is involuntary, -for no one prefers evil as evil;...such being the case, to free ourselves from ignorance, and from evil and voluptuous choice, and above all, to withhold our assent from those delusive phantasies, depends on ourselves." The Instructor 2:1. 3:319 speaks well of the work Shepherd of Hermas. also last chapter.
"Everything then, which did not hinder a man’s choice from being free, He made and rendered auxiliary to virtue," Stromata 7:2
"And how is He Saviour and Lord, if not the Saviour and Lord of all? But He is the Saviour of those who have believed, because of their wishing to know; and the Lord of those who have not believed, till, being enabled to confess him, they obtain the peculiar and appropriate boon which comes by Him." (Stromata 7:2)
Hippolytus, disciple of Irenaeus and Bishop of Portus 220-236 A.D. 5:152 "[Jesus] might exhibit His own manhood as an aim for all men. And that by Himself in person He might prove that God made nothing evil, and that man possesses the capacity of self-determination, inasmuch as he is able to will and not to will, and is endued with the power to do both." Refutat. of All Heresies 10:29
Origen (strange teacher) 230-254 A.D. 4:240 "This also is clearly defined in the teaching of the Church, that every rational soul is possessed of free-will and volition;" De Principiis Preface 5
Because it is predestined that some sin and some call out the sinner.
True story:
My friend's son was very young. He did something worthy of discipline. He told his dad: "But dad, God made me do it." and his dad replied, "Yes, and God is going to make me discipline you."
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28
This is an excellent example of a hypocritical gittb...
I don't know what "gittb" means but it isn't hypocritical. Now then, if the father of the child, who does believe in the sovereignty of God, said: "Yes, but I have a free will to punish you," then, yes, that would be hypocritical.
The Bible is quite clear concerning God's sovereignty over humanity.
"Why then is He still blaming for who has withstood His intention?" (Roman 9:19). The answer is: Because that is what humanity needs. Many withstand His will but in so doing they fulfill His intention to withstand His will.
Case in point: Adam. God's will was that he not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But His intention was that he will eat of it. Yes, God blamed him for eating, not because he could do otherwise but to show to him that he is not in control of his destiny.
Free Will from the christian viewpoint is summed up nicely by Steve Weinberg.
“Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.
But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”
― Steven Weinberg
True Christianity is not based on religion since religion, which is a set of rules for people to DO things to appease God, is counter to true Christianity. True Christianity tells us the cross of Christ is the end of human endeavor. It is the death of the flesh. Religion says we have to do such and such. True Christianity says "It is all done."
Weinberg is, historically wrong. The prisons are filled with non-religious people.
True Christianity is not based on religion since religion, which is a set of rules for people to DO things to appease God, is counter to true Christianity. True Christianity tells us the cross of Christ is the end of human endeavor. It is the death of the flesh. Religion says we have to do such and such. True Christianity says "It is all done."
Weinberg is, historically wrong. The prisons are filled with non-religious people.
Strange how prisons are the places with the GREATEST conversion rates to religion
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
