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My skepticism on religion is making me an atheist. There is really a lot of questions I really don't understand. Let me mention some of those and maybe you can help me understand;
-First if there is really one religion how about the others? There are like 4000 religions in the world and let say it was Christianity, and then it will mean that millions of people will burn in hell ( considering their beliefs of worshiping other Gods) . I mean think of this at this way, you lived like a saint your whole life but you are not born a Christian because you were born in India and your whole family are Hindu's, well what do you think your religion would be? Do you think it is your fault for being in a non-christian religion? Do you think it's fair for people to burn in hell for that kind of reason?
-Second, if you do get in heaven and most people that you loved on earth are in hell, would you really enjoy eternity in Heaven if you know someone is burning over and over again in hell specially the people you know?
-Third, if God really loves us why create Hell and let people stay there forever without a chance of changing or even if they do change and feel bad for their past mistakes they are not gonna get out there.
I got really a lot in my head, but I think this is okay for now. That's all thanks.
Here's a start:
The word hell is not found in the earliest copies of the Bible
Scriptures in both the Hebrew and the Greek argue against an immortal soul. To be tortured eternally would require immortality.
The ancient Jews including Jesus (he was a Jew) had an understanding of death that is not the same as modern day Jews or the majority of Christians. Ancient Jews believed that at death everyone experienced the same condition regardless of being righteous, wicked, rich, poor, famous, infamous. They did believe in resurrection and that is what Jesus taught.
Bible speaks of a time that many who have died in the past will be resurrected. That takes care of the issue of what about those folks who never had an opportunity to know about the true God.
I am loathe to respond to you because you are so sensitive and focused on emotional tone, kindness and what not which cannot effectively be communicated verbally on a forum. The tendency to attribute negative emotions and motivations to people who strongly disagree with you is evident.
What are you talking about? Where in my response do you find any of your claims?
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Your post above clearly reveals that you do not understand what a euphemism and a presupposition are. Your expressions are tautologies.
How so?
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Nature and natural presuppose the very attributes of unguided, purposeless, indifferent processes that "just are" because we do NOT know what they actually ARE or why.
Can you please be more specific. Which processes are you referring to?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
The words you so cavalierly use were created to replace the earlier and more accurate attribution largely because of religious persecution and theocratic authoritarianism, NOT any rational scientific reasons. Their use and existence have been rationalized after the fact using the limitations of science as the excuse to ignore the original attribution.
I am loathe to respond to you because you are so sensitive and focused on emotional tone, kindness and what not which cannot effectively be communicated verbally on a forum. The tendency to attribute negative emotions and motivations to people who strongly disagree with you is evident. Your post above clearly reveals that you do not understand what a euphemism and a presupposition are. Your expressions are tautologies. Nature and natural presuppose the very attributes of unguided, purposeless, indifferent processes that "just are" because we do NOT know what they actually ARE or why. The words you so cavalierly use were created to replace the earlier and more accurate attribution largely because of religious persecution and theocratic authoritarianism, NOT any rational scientific reasons. Their use and existence have been rationalized after the fact using the limitations of science as the excuse to ignore the original attribution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora
What are you talking about? Where in my response do you find any of your claims?
Apparently you have forgotten your emotional rant accusing me of being the most hateful person in the forum (or something like that) and my beliefs (you said religion) are not helping me to be Christlike, or whatever. It was unpleasant and I tend to forget unpleasantness.
Quote:
How so?
Can you please be more specific. Which processes are you referring to?
Specifically which words are you referring to?
You use the words natural, naturally occurring, (which presuppose the existence Nature) and define them as "existing by nature," which is clearly tautological.
Apparently you have forgotten your emotional rant accusing me of being the most hateful person in the forum (or something like that) and my beliefs (you said religion) are not helping me to be Christlike, or whatever.
My question was about this post. Let's try this again.
What are you talking about? Where in my response do you find any of your claims?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
It was unpleasant and I tend to forget unpleasantness.
Then why did you bring it up?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
You use the words natural, naturally occurring, (which presuppose the existence Nature) and define them as "existing by nature," which is clearly tautological.
No I use the words naturally occurring to explain the predictions and observations discovered by science.
Are you trying to invoke god here? Not sure what your point is other than you don't understand what is meant by naturally occurring thus you try to invoke a god. Is that your point?
Apparently you have forgotten your emotional rant accusing me of being the most hateful person in the forum (or something like that) and my beliefs (you said religion) are not helping me to be Christlike, or whatever. It was unpleasant and I tend to forget unpleasantness. You use the words natural, naturally occurring, (which presuppose the existence Nature) and define them as "existing by nature," which is clearly tautological.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora
My question was about this post. Let's try this again.
What are you talking about? Where in my response do you find any of your claims?
I was not referring to your post in this thread when I characterized you as focused on emotional tone, kindness, and whatever.
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Then why did you bring it up?
Because you asked me what I meant.
Quote:
No I use the words naturally occurring to explain the predictions and observations discovered by science.
But "naturally occurring" is not an explanation. It is a euphemism for we don't know but it just IS.
Quote:
Are you trying to invoke god here? Not sure what your point is other than you don't understand what is meant by naturally occurring thus you try to invoke a god. Is that your point?
You are the one invoking an unknown god here named nature while pretending it isn't. I prefer to acknowledge that it is God based on its attributes, accomplishments, ubiquity, scope, power and control over us. You prefer natural laws. I prefer God's laws. Your version is based on ignorance about what it actually is and why, as well as,ignoring its undeniable known attributes.
Do you really believe this? Perhaps you should go back to post#70 and see how you brought it up before I ever asked you. I think you really need to take a good look at how you behaved in the post you are pointing your finger at me over, and stop bringing it up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
But "naturally occurring" is not an explanation. It is a euphemism for we don't know but it just IS.
Let's define euphemism: the substitution of a mild, indirect, or vague expression for one thought to be offensive, harsh, or blunt.
Naturally occurring is not a vague expression that's thought to be offensive, harsh, or blunt.
Naturally occurring are processes that occur naturally. They can be predicted by science and tested. These are processes that are not aided by some magic force.
Natural process - a process existing in or produced by nature (rather than by the intent of human beings); "the action of natural forces"; "volcanic activity"
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
You are the one invoking an unknown god here named nature while pretending it isn't.
I suppose you will have to take that up with the person invoking a god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I prefer to acknowledge that it is God based on its attributes, accomplishments, ubiquity, scope, power and control over us.
Instead of making very vague statements about your god, perhaps you should explain exactly how this god has power and control over us? As well as what it's attributes and accomplishments are? And what it's ubiquity and scope are?
That would be a much more valuable discussion than making blanket statements about your god.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
You prefer natural laws.
More vaguness. I prefer natural laws to what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I prefer God's laws.
And what laws are those?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Your version is based on ignorance about what it actually is and why, as well as,ignoring its undeniable known attributes.
LOL! I'm not the one who is invoking a god when at the limits of my understanding as you are clearly doing here. Watch who you are calling ignorant here.
If, as we say, there is only 1 true God...why do you suppose he would allow the other 3999 religions to teach differently than what he has revealed? He told us how to worship him--why do you believe he would allow us to thumb his nose at that and do our own thing and worship gods we created in our own minds?
The answer to your question is that God has told us how to respond to him. If we don't, he has no obligation to be merciful to us.
Jesus said that he came to even divide families. He knew that faith in him might cause conflict and division.
God is THAT good that his presence will mean no more tears, no more sadness. He has been merciful to sinners and he extends grace so that I believe he will be glorified EVEN if people that we loved on earth going to hell.
He is loving, but he is also just. He must punish sin. The punishment is infinite because God is infinite.
Why do you presuppose that people will change to love God after any amount of punishment?
Happy to help. Hopefully I was.
This is some of the most ridiculous, illogical things I've ever heard.
How has "your" God given absolute proof to members of 4000 other faiths that *he's* the only One to believe in?
How is that Jesus could love everyone when he's perfectly willing to divide families forever, just to satisfy his own ego?
Why must God punish "sin"? If "sin" is so reprehensible, why did he allow it in the universe in the first place? And don't give me any tripe about "free will" - it doesn't exist.
The God that you and others like you believe in is far worse than any Hitler, Stalin or Genghis Khan who has walked the face of the Earth. Those monsters killed millions, but they didn't condemn those millions to an infinity of unimaginable torture.
If Christianity was about love, mercy and the betterment of humankind, I'd still probably be a believer. But it's not, and I must reject it.
This is some of the most ridiculous, illogical things I've ever heard.
How has "your" God given absolute proof to members of 4000 other faiths that *he's* the only One to believe in?
How is that Jesus could love everyone when he's perfectly willing to divide families forever, just to satisfy his own ego?
Why must God punish "sin"? If "sin" is so reprehensible, why did he allow it in the universe in the first place? And don't give me any tripe about "free will" - it doesn't exist.
The God that you and others like you believe in is far worse than any Hitler, Stalin or Genghis Khan who has walked the face of the Earth. Those monsters killed millions, but they didn't condemn those millions to an infinity of unimaginable torture.
If Christianity was about love, mercy and the betterment of humankind, I'd still probably be a believer. But it's not, and I must reject it.
EXCELLENT POST
and I agree......some of the most ridiculous thinking I have heard in a while, but fortunately, most of my contact with Vizio types anymore is limited to referrals at work, or this board.
Logic like Vizio's makes debunking the fables easy. Myth, in the case of Christianity, is still myth, even if some people think it is true.
To the OP
The Biblical God is a Failure. He is Immoral, Imperfect and (Imaginary)
Even by standards of humanity, The Biblical God is a total mess.
When one asks why follow an imperfect god, my response is, why create an imperfect one?
Sometimes it is best to divide religion from spirituality. To some, they're one in the same, to others, they are very different.
Religions are worldly rules created by man and man alone to divide and separate for the gain of one's self and the persecution of others. Man is not inherently evil however man needs a rationalization, a justification to act in noninherent evil ways, hence religion.
The most dangerous religions are those not founded on inner personal growth but the spreading of non debatable concepts. Concepts that hinder the natural progression of not only personal growth but societal growth and evolution. You can ask yourself what religions these are.
I believe the sky is blue, you believe the sky is green. We both love our wives, raise our children, are good neighbors, and work for the greater good of the next generation. By all rational accounts there is no reason for me to hate you nor you hate me. All except for jealousy. Jealousy that my wife is more beautiful than your wife. Of course that is really no reason for you to avoid me, or worse! That is a rationalization determined by our own animal brains. Religion is needed to override man's inherently good conscience to have evil thoughts and do evil deeds in the hopes of small personal gains resulting from great acts of evil. Religion is the war within ourselves to get what we want by overriding our natural good instincts and justify to our unconscious selves that what we did was "right". Basically to do bad things and not feel bad about it
Any pseudo spiritual growth people experience within religion is only because it allows them to get what they want not what they need.
Last edited by HansProof; 04-22-2016 at 05:36 PM..
My skepticism on religion is making me an atheist. There is really a lot of questions I really don't understand. Let me mention some of those and maybe you can help me understand;
-First if there is really one religion how about the others? There are like 4000 religions in the world and let say it was Christianity, and then it will mean that millions of people will burn in hell ( considering their beliefs of worshiping other Gods) . I mean think of this at this way, you lived like a saint your whole life but you are not born a Christian because you were born in India and your whole family are Hindu's, well what do you think your religion would be? Do you think it is your fault for being in a non-christian religion? Do you think it's fair for people to burn in hell for that kind of reason?
-Second, if you do get in heaven and most people that you loved on earth are in hell, would you really enjoy eternity in Heaven if you know someone is burning over and over again in hell specially the people you know?
-Third, if God really loves us why create Hell and let people stay there forever without a chance of changing or even if they do change and feel bad for their past mistakes they are not gonna get out there.
I got really a lot in my head, but I think this is okay for now. That's all thanks.
You must be a very young atheist, a true newbie, a rookie. You have a long ways to go grasshopper.
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