Wonder why Christians are looked down upon? Just read the Christian responses in these 2 threads. (quotes, Jesus)
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Didn't you make the statement that victims come forward out of vindictiveness?
I have no idea why every victim comes forward. I don't know every victim that has come forward. I guess there would be several reasons, one of which could be vindictiveness.
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Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8
If that is your viewpoint then it would look to you that people are being unforgiving. I think victims come forward to heal themselves and keep the predator from doing it to other kids. That's why I say this isn't about forgiveness.
I've forgiven a number of people for their wrongs against me. And, I've also apologized for wrongs that I've done to others. For some things I've actually felt shame. Again, I can't speak for everyone but I doubt that the cause for too many of those coming forward would be for as noble a cause as to keep other kids safe. I''d say that that is a stretch but whoever believes this is obviously free to do so. Who knows? Whatever I have to say on this thread I'm pretty well damned so . . .
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Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8
If I am remembering correctly on another issue you said that people join groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses and SDA's because they want to be controlled.
Did I say that? You would have to refer me to those posts. I don't think I would have used the SDAs or the JWs (that I know next to nothing about) in particular to make this claim but, to a point, every Christian denomination has a certain amount of control over its flock. It has to to keep the church unified.
This doesn't mean that 'control' is necessarily a bad thing. Those that most of us work for have control over us. They pay our wages for doing what they expect of us. And, we're mostly okay with this. If not we quit and find another job and be under the control of someone else. The government and all of its agencies have control over us and the system seems to work to the best of its ability in a non-perfect world.
Religion serves the purpose of both the organization and those who belong to it. The SDA Church, for instance, has certain doctrines that are known to its members. No one is forced to join the church (although some are 'born' into it) and it's assumed that those that do choose to join the church take on board those doctrines. Or, they might just be there for fellowship and to meet those who they feel will be 'decent' people to be around. The 'control' that the SDA Church (by example) might have is that its members are rather 'afraid' to violate the Sabbath. Example, "I need to sneak into the store after church (Saturday) to buy some Panadol (pain relief tablets) ...I hope no one from church sees me." Silly stuff like that.
The 'expected' SDA beliefs pertaining to homosexuality (same as that of mainstream Christianity) might also be seen as being some form of 'mind control' although I never came across any official SDA church position that said that one could not have their own viewpoint on this or any other subject. As said, it would be expected but certainly not enforced that certain passages of scripture be agreed upon. I recall on several occasions, some years back, when I raised this topic (homosexuality and Sodom and Gomorrah) for discussion at Sabbath School. Some agreed with my take on the subject and some didn't. After the discussion we just continued on as normal.
I don't know enough about the JWs to even comment.
The 'control' I would refer to as being bad of the vast majority of Christian denominations is the evil doctrine that is taught about hell. SDAs (I don't know about JWs) don't believe in a literal hell so that particular 'threat' to its membership to 'follow the scriptures or else' is non-existent. They DO believe in 'annihilation' or 'non-existence', however, which is something probably best to avoid if one can do so. This might be a vague reason for its members to 'toe the party line', so to speak but, I doubt it. Generally, it's rarely spoken of. I have never yet heard an Adventist message that 'condemns anyone to annihilation'. Hell is just something that is not preached on in an SDA church, UNLIKE MOST EVANGELICAL CHURCHES! SDAs just pretty well want to be good little Adventists!
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Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8
Remember how you said if they don't want to be controlled they can leave and you denied the SDA practiced shunning.
If I used the word 'control' with regard to the SDA Church then I was wrong and I would need to apologize. Are you sure? Other than, as mentioned, perhaps some being apprehensive about violating the Sabbath, there are no mechanisms in place to 'control' Adventists. I'm even generalizing about the Sabbath. Some SDAs may have no qualms about ducking into the store after church to pick up a roast chicken for lunch. It's pretty much a personal thing. You won't be disfellowshiped for violating the Sabbath or for eating pork or bacon or ham ...another little quirk regarding SDAs and their (pretty sensible) 'health message'. I certainly called in to do some shopping on my way home from church on occasions though, I must confess, I would have felt a tad guilty had I been spotted by someone from the church. Then again, whoever spotted me would also have been there so, I guess, the guilt feelings would be canceled out.
As for shunning. I haven't experienced this from the SDA Church. Not at all. In fact, every so often I'll be invited to the church for a special event followed by a luncheon. There is nothing that some would want more than my return to the church after however many years its been since I regularly attended. I can't even remember ...7 or 8 years maybe. They claim to miss my music (I was worship leader for many years) and they miss the social events and outreach programs that I would organize on a regular basis. So they say.
The 'shunning' by JWs and Mormons is just something that I've read about. I'm pretty sure that Katspur (the Mormon person on the forum) sais that she has no actual knowledge of anyone being shunned. It's certainly not something that the Mormon Church would approve of anyway. Individuals in any church might do things that the church would not approve but that's not the fault of the church.
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Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8
I countered that with my belief that they are being tricked and have no idea they are controlled. So is actually what you seem to imply is that you feel more at home around people who desired to be controlled.
I think my responses to these questions have been far too lengthy already since this IS a derail of the main topic which, I confess, I want no more to do with. While I will continue to stand by my beliefs I don't want to go out of my way to make myself more unpopular by the day. But, you are expecting responses from me so I'll do that to the best of my ability and I'll blame you for the derail.
Few people that I've met actually have a mind of their own. Most are manipulated to some extent or another. And, they have no idea that they are being manipulated. And, those that DO think outside 'the accepted norm' are often ostracized ...me and the majority of posts on this thread for instance. Most have responded to my thoughts on this issue that bear similarities to that of Pavlov's dog. It would have been far better for me never to have ventured on to this site to encounter those that are programmed to respond in exactly the same venomous way. It was actually unwise of me to have done so. If I hadn't we might instead have finished up with 150 posters reveling in one big 'hate-fest'. Oh, wait . . .
I'm already around people that desire to be controlled, so what's the difference if it's within or without a church? How many even give this any thought? I live in the world ...a world of controlled people. Why do we just assume that it's religion that controls one's mind? The facts are that one could never be a 'non-conformist' in a 'conformist' world. Isn't this why Jesus was so despised by the Pharisees (Pharisees are NOT just religious people) and subsequently killed, according to the Bible? He was a non-conformist who even loved the unlovable and actually hung around with the sinners of His day. Ring any bells? There are those, I'm sure, on this very thread who may well string up Jesus if He were here today. I believe with all my heart that Jesus would accept the convicted rapist and give him the chance to redeem himself. I've witnessed for myself the venom and the the ugliness of people on this very thread who, I'm sure, would really hate Jesus if He were here.
So, if I have to choose between people who are controlled and unified by hatred or those that are controlled and unified by love and the accepting of 'sinners' and the unloved of society, then ...it's really not a difficult choice for me to make. I'll certainly give the Fundamentalist Christians a wide berth, however. It's rather difficult to pick the difference between the religious pharisees and the secular pharisees.
Does it not remind you of Lot offering his virgin daughters to the mob to do with what they wanted?
I was taught this story as a kid in Sunday school as though it was quite fine.
I share your indignation. It is indeed very concerning!
I'm sorry that you now regard me in such a way, 303Guy ...especially at the instigation of someone with the vile attitude of cupper. The man you're siding with has said things about me (someone he doesn't even know beyond the forum) that are cruel and inflammatory simply because I believe in giving someone another go. That's pretty much it. There is more to cupper than meets the eye but he seems to have accumulated a rather loyal fan-base of a few people anyway. I realize that I'm a loner on this particular topic but I guess I made my bed and I have to lay in it.
Be that as it may ...I remain now as I did from the very beginning when I chose to venture on to this vulgar thread. This man (Hopper) is now accepted by the members of the church to which he belongs. They believe he deserves another chance and - by golly - so do I!! Yep, I say to leave this man alone and get on with our own lives. Whatever you, cupper or anyone else on this thread thinks about it, it's none of our business anyway. And, if I have to lose forum friends along the way then so be it. I still have my friends in real life as well as my 3 kitty cats who (appear to) love me despite all else . . .
No need to respond ...I really don't want to have any more to do with this thread. It's just as trashy as the media source from which it came.
I was hoping that this thread was going the way of the dodo. I had nothing else to contribute without endlessly covering the same ground. But, I was wrong. The circus IS evidently still in town and the clowns among us still persist in milking this topic for all they can. Not only the subject matter, mind, but also insulting me and making charges against me in the bargain. Thank God this is just a forum and we are mere words on a screen. I would hate to have to deal with such people in a real life situation.
And so you respond by hurling insults back at the people that offend you.
'Nah-uh! You're a booger head!'
'Well, you're a ding-dong brain!'
'Am not!'
'Are too!'
Do you want us to take what you say seriously, or simply engage in a shouting match?
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(snip) How dare you call it 'cringeworthy' that "I" or anyone else chooses to forgive and forget former childhood abusers rather than to wallow in self-pity and be eaten away with bitterness (snip)
We are taking exception to the tone of your post -- one that appears to support the abuser over the abused. You may not have intended it to read that way, but it did.
Own your words, Romulus. Think carefully about what you're saying, before you say it, and you'll probably avoid a battle like this in the future.
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Okay, back to the subject at hand. This man (Hopper) was charged with rape and spent 10 years in prison. He served his term as per the law. He was released back into society as per the law. You say, "That a sex offender gets to live in society at all is more than they deserve." That is about as ignorant a statement as anyone could make. You sound like cupper and he lost credibility with me long ago. As have you. It's a pity really because you appear to be a cut above the others and you at least express yourself in a more reasonable manner. Anyway, from then on I determined that you had little else to say that was in any way helpful.
Putting aside your personal attacks -- I'm definitely for forgiveness. What, in your opinion, is 'forgivable' about sexually violating a child? How many children must he abuse before he's considered 'beyond forgiveness'?
Ten? A hundred? A thousand? How many does it take?
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You DO know that it's the duty of Christians to follow their leader (Jesus) and to forgive people for their iniquities, i.e. 'sins', don't you? Well, this is what the pastor of the church and - as far as I know - the majority of his congregation have done. Are you okay with this? Or would you rather your post be pinned on to the wall in the church foyer highlighting your words, "That a sex offender gets to live in society at all is more than they deserve" . . .?
The pastor and the church can do what they like. If you (and they) consider him worthy of forgiveness, that's your business. I'm not so willing to forgive.
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This thread has made me realize that I've unwittingly and stupidly become a part of a people who live in a harsh and unforgiving, vindictive world and I really don't want any part in this crud.
This is going to sound harsh, but -- yeah, the world sucks. That's the absolute truth; it sucks, and all we can do is live here and try to make it suck a little less.
Is the world is 'harsh and unforgiving'? Is it 'vindictive'? Of course it is. Humanity as a whole has taken its present position of dominance almost entirely by being the harshest, most unforgiving and most vindictive animal on the face of the planet.
Human nature is not pretty, Romulus, and that's a fact. It may be harsh, and unforgiving and 'vindictive', but you can be certain that we will protect our offspring.
'Never mess with Mama Bear', Romulus. Or, to put it more prosaically:
'F*** with my cubs, and I will end you.'
Last edited by FredNotBob; 04-25-2016 at 04:20 AM..
Reason: Correcting orphaned quote-boxes
I suspect that you hope that the girls are innocent (to fit the general theme of this entire thread) just to somehow prove that girls really ARE made of 'sugar and spice and all things nice' and that boys really ARE made of 'snips and snails and puppy dog's tails'. Reality, unfortunately, sometimes indicates otherwise. I'm a realist.
Assumptions are made based on the evidence at hand. The 'evidence' at hand so far appears to indicate that there just might have been a rather sinister plot to frame someone. 'Assuming something' is a rather natural thing to do and we all do it. This won't have anything to do with the final outcome.
And you have shown that you 'hope' that it's just a bunch of nasty little tramps who were playing a malicious sinister prank on a 'sweet innocent guy' who never harmed any of the girls.
Maybe it's both and the girls were plotting revenge in a malicious nasty way because they had been raped or sexually assaulted by the guy. Reality is often complex. Like I said, i'll wait for what the court case reveals.
And so you respond by hurling insults back at the people that offend you.
'Nah-uh! You're a booger head!'
'Well, you're a ding-dong brain!'
'Am not!'
'Are too!'
Do you want us to take what you say seriously, or simply engage in a shouting match?
We are taking exception to the tone of your post -- one that appears to support the abuser over the abused. You may not have intended it to read that way, but it did.
Own your words, Romulus. Think carefully about what you're saying, before you say it, and you'll probably avoid a battle like this in the future.
Putting aside your personal attacks -- I'm definitely for forgiveness. What, in your opinion, is 'forgivable' about sexually violating a child? How many children must he abuse before he's considered 'beyond forgiveness'?
Ten? A hundred? A thousand? How many does it take?
The pastor and the church can do what they like. If you (and they) consider him worthy of forgiveness, that's your business. I'm not so willing to forgive.
This is going to sound harsh, but -- yeah, the world sucks. That's the absolute truth; it sucks, and all we can do is live here and try to make it suck a little less.
Is the world is 'harsh and unforgiving'? Is it 'vindictive'? Of course it is. Humanity as a whole has taken its present position of dominance almost entirely by being the harshest, most unforgiving and most vindictive animal on the face of the planet.
Human nature is not pretty, Romulus, and that's a fact. It may be harsh, and unforgiving and 'vindictive', but you can be certain that we will protect our offspring.
'Never mess with Mama Bear', Romulus. Or, to put it more prosaically:
'F*** with my cubs, and I will end you.'
Go away little man. I'm done with you and this trashy thread.
And you have shown that you 'hope' that it's just a bunch of nasty little tramps who were playing a malicious sinister prank on a 'sweet innocent guy' who never harmed any of the girls.
Maybe it's both and the girls were plotting revenge in a malicious nasty way because they had been raped or sexually assaulted by the guy. Reality is often complex. Like I said, i'll wait for what the court case reveals.
Same message as given to the little man. But I'll be more polite in this case. Please go away. I'm done with this trashy thread.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
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Originally Posted by Ceist
And you have shown that you 'hope' that it's just a bunch of nasty little tramps who were playing a malicious sinister prank on a 'sweet innocent guy' who never harmed any of the girls.
Maybe it's both and the girls were plotting revenge in a malicious nasty way because they had been raped or sexually assaulted by the guy. Reality is often complex. Like I said, i'll wait for what the court case reveals.
The court case revealed he held a razor knife to the 13 year old little girl's throat, he was convicted and he spent 10 years in jail for the horrible crime, he has to be on the Sexual Offenders Registry list for the rest of his life, and was convicted of numerous other crimes shortly each time he got out.
I wish to offer an apology to FredNotBob for my post 186. I didn't read his post as well as I might have. My bad. I just more or less focused on certain things and pretty much ignored the rest. I just now read the full post. Anyway, I could have and should have responded with something less rude.
The court case revealed he held a razor knife to the 13 year old little girl's throat, he was convicted and he spent 10 years in jail for the horrible crime, he has to be on the Sexual Offenders Registry list for the rest of his life, and was convicted of numerous other crimes shortly each time he got out.
If you are privvy to the court transcripts of this case I would appreciate it if you could direct me to them. My idea of debate is to FIRST get the FACTS from an OFFICIAL SOURCE rather than from some cheap tabloid media source/s. So far all I have seen from such media sources are vague references to the original crime (no actual description of events/no specific dates) and similar vague references to other relatively minor offenses. The 'cheap stuff' is all I can find about this case on the Internet. If you're going all out to nail this guy and make sure his life from now on is miserable at least get your facts from an official source. Do you HAVE an official source or are you just reading the same vague and slanted stuff that I am?
All that said, cupper ...since you're so concerned for the girl in question and give the impression on a forum that you're some sort of a moral crusader I trust that you've made efforts to contact the little girl (now a woman) and to offer her your support? That would be what I would try to do if I felt so strongly about something.
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