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Remember, you are only doing it for your own selfish, debased sinful reasons. If you were a Christian, you would do exactly the same thing, but better, because God told you to.
</jeffbase>
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Still self centeredness. Dogs invoke a pleasure emotional response so we naturally want to help a pooch rather than just coldly let them fend for themselves.
The patting yourself on the back is only more proof of this position.
It took Jeff only 39 minutes to prove my snarky comment correct.
Absolutely! And quite biological and part of the reptilian brained "pleasure seeking, pain avoidance" cycle.
JUST like the pleasurable emotional response one self-creates by believing s/he is doing what God wants and hence, is doing the right thing. A rush of "reward" chemicals, if you will, flood the body in response to this "correct actions" self-determination.
It is identical. And it's great, either way, because it encourages us to help one another.
Yea, the irony is staggering! He does things because he thinks God wants him to, and he is a righteous man. We do the same thing because WE want to, and we are self centered. Such an ignorant thing....
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Yes it is a trap. If I responded the way you wanted then you would say, wow you are not even sure of your own faith, why should I be? Probability factors, that's why.
You always think people are out to get you. That is no way to live life, Jeff. I would actually respect someone who admits they don't know, but believe it to be true. You don't know, and claim to know without a doubt. They are different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
They sure don't act like way. They boldly proclaim that God is dead or a lie as it is proven fact.
Some may, but certainly not most. If you think they do, then you must have some selective memory or something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
If you were comparing two situations, I wouldn't automatically say, wow you just said Christians are as bad as ISIS. Bottom line is I never said that about gays.
Not if I did it once, maybe (we all know you would freak out. We have seen you do it, man!), but if I did it every time I talked about Christians, you certainly would.
And yes, you did. Everyone on here can attest to that.
Dogs have been know to go into a burning house to rescue their kitten. Atheists have been know to go into burning buildings to rescue strangers. But if a Christian does the same thing he or she is doing it for pure unselfish reasons whereas the atheists, and I guess the dog , do it for selfish reasons. Apparently by simply believing in a god the religious person is pure and unselfish compared to the none believer.
I guess the take away from this lesson is that if you are an atheists and you have to rescue someone first ask them if they are a Christian and then ask them if it is OK to save them for supposedly selfish reasons or would they prefer to wait for a Bible Believer to come by and save them for unselfish reasons. I would think that if the Christian would be OK with the atheists to save them the Christian themselves could be taken as a selfish person by allowing the atheist to be selfish.
Or I could continue to think that good people do good things because it is the right thing to do. The only evidence that we have that says otherwise is Jeff's proclamation.
Dogs have been know to go into a burning house to rescue their kitten. Atheists have been know to go into burning buildings to rescue strangers. But if a Christian does the same thing he or she is doing it for pure unselfish reasons whereas the atheists, and I guess the dog , do it for selfish reasons. Apparently by simply believing in a god the religious person is pure and unselfish compared to the none believer.
I'll take dog morality over atheist morality any day. Dogs don't judge or ask that you earn their respect first before they treat you nice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander
I guess the take away from this lesson is that if you are an atheists and you have to rescue someone first ask them if they are a Christian and then ask them if it is OK to save them for supposedly selfish reasons or would they prefer to wait for a Bible Believer to come by and save them for unselfish reasons. I would think that if the Christian would be OK with the atheists to save them the Christian themselves could be taken as a selfish person by allowing the atheist to be selfish.
Well that would be silly. Selfish or unselfish, the end result is the same. Again, I never said atheists are incapable of doing good deeds. Their motivation is just self serving. You can't tell me that you are doing things out of the goodness of your heart when you don't even believe in the conceptual idea of a heart. We are only flesh and bone in your world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by badlander
Or I could continue to think that good people do good things because it is the right thing to do. The only evidence that we have that says otherwise is Jeff's proclamation.
And exactly what determines that it is the right thing to do? That chemical reaction in your brain?
Not sure how I patted myself on the back here, as I assume many/most people would have done the same.
I saved a cat once, too, and I don't like cats. Took care of it for years. Someone had dumped it on my car. No warm fuzzies. No one would take her and I wasn't gonna dump her in a shelter.
I've anonymously donated money to random strangers many times. If I wanted a pat on the back, why the anonymity? Hell, at least half those times I didn't tell anyone, including my wife that I did it. The other half, only my wife (bc it might have been a large $ or something).
By the way, your need and belief in organized fairy tales IS VERY MUCH BIOLOGICAL.
Humans who are able to swallow the religious tripe throughout history have survived better to pass their gullible genes on bc religion helps communities survive and thrive and cooperate and religion helps individuals cope with hardship better.
You are programmed, Jeff - by biology and the sad fact that kids are easy to brainwash - to believe. Why do you think they indoctrinate them so young?
You can't tell me that you are doing things out of the goodness of your heart when you don't even believe in the conceptual idea of a heart. We are only flesh and bone in your world.
I am constrained to point out that nothing about atheism prevents an atheist from "believing in the conceptual idea of a heart". We have subjective emotional responses to things just like everyone else. We have hopes, dreams and aspirations, too, as well as the empathy to see those things in others.
That is a sufficient sufficient human explanation for the motivation to good works and the feelings one gets from doing them, whether I do them or you do them. It is YOUR contention that you have a special grace from god for it. But I don't need that to explain whatever good I might observe you doing in the world. I might need it to explain the way you interpret your own motivations through the lens of your belief system, but not the good works themselves.
Oh, and by the way, if everything you people do is to keep from going to hell or to get in good graces with Jesus, how is that not totally self-serving?
Nobody cares if I'm good. I don't get any heavenly reward. I don't get anything for being a good person. So why wouldn't my being good be far more selfless?
And exactly what determines that it is the right thing to do? That chemical reaction in your brain?
No, not just that. Indeed, that only produces the overall feel/feeling.
Rather, the right thing to do depends upon one's experiences, one's interactions with others throughout one's lifetime, and simple observation.
This is combined with what we've evolved to prioritize. Groups - and by extension, others in general - are important to social species, including ours.
Not sure how I patted myself on the back here, as I assume many/most people would have done the same.
You didn't... It's just absolutely necessary for the person you're responding to, to believe that's what you're doing...so he can separate himself from you.
HE is acting in a holy way. YOU are acting in a selfish way. You are doing the same things. But he NEEDS to make *his* motives unselfish so...the constant "you stand over there, I stand over here" on this issue of whether we act out of Godly or "selfish" motives. Even though you're doing the same thing and are getting the same feeling from doing it and have the same concerns as your reason for doing it.
Because after all. If non-Christians can do the same helpful things, then, well...who needs Christianity? And that thought is frightening.
I really feel this theme of "self-centeredness" and "self-serving actions," which keeps repeating (that's why it's become so glaringly obvious), is projection. That could explain the constant repetition of the theme, the struggling to draw a line (YOU are acting out of self-serving desires but *I* am acting *through God*) and the continued emphasized disgust for being "self-serving" is really self-disgust...not disgust at the rest of us here.
And it's fear. Lots and lots and lots and lots of fear.
When a person has built his life around one thing, and that thing isn't proving itself, well...then what does that person have? It must be utterly terrifying...like a freefall out of an airplane with no parachute.
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It's just absolutely necessary for the person you're responding to, to believe that's what you're doing...so he can separate himself from you.
