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Plus any mention of a modern day term like "steam engine" would be meaningless gibberish to the millions of people who lived before steam engines became a reality. It would be like reading a book today that says in the future, everyone will have a tartrasdan for quadudal therapy.
That's the point. It would be impressive to have something like 'the ten stars of rock and clouds circling the sun, and the others, still larger but at unimaginable distances..' would be piously copied without understanding, but today would be the 'science in the Bible' (1) that Bible apologists regularly try to argue for as validation of the Bible.
Indeed, you sorta try it on with the Ezekiel spaceship. Glad you admit that the origins of Life and the Biblical religion was equally likely due to visiting spacemen.
(1) entropy and the running -down of the universe; mountains (or fountains) under the sea. Oh and medical cleanliness is one of the best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffbase40
...The Bible isn't a science book, but when it does touch on such areas, it's pretty accurate. Mosaic law shows a foreknowledge of how to protect against bacteria, mold and infectious diseases for example. Something that took man centuries to figure out.
Yep. Jeff picked that up and answers his own question - such things are handy as evidence that the Bible is the knowledge of God, not the knowledge of the men of the 10th c B.C.
No doubt the claim that from this or that mountain you can see all the world will be shrugged off as a metaphor of a lot of the world seen from there or a metaphor of the rest of the world by reference to what could be seen from there or just a metaphor.
P.s Reminds me of an old joke
"Do you believe in Adam and Eve, the tree of fruit, talking snake,etc.?"
"Yes, I believe that is historical fact."
"You believe in a talking donkey, a fish swallowing a man, or another swallowing a shekel"
"Yes, I believe that is what actually happened."
"You believe in a mobile star, tombs opening and the occupants roaming the streets and and angel descending in an earthquake?"
"Of course."
"How about the injunction to give all your goods to the poor and follow Jesus?"
"I thought that was just metaphorical."
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 05-06-2016 at 06:40 AM..
On the contrary "common sense" is found throughout the Bible, for good or bad. Sound reasoning and validated evidence is rather lacking, however.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
A college text on astronomy tells us nothing Australia, the steam engine or the Heimlich maneuver, either. Since it doesn't cover these topics, does that mean it serves no purpose?
If it tells us that the world is a flat circle with a dome over it and the celestial bodies trundling around on the inside, then the only purpose it serves is to give us all a good laugh. And I have to say the same of a book that tells us there were horses and chariots in America around 4 BC or whatever and also that bogstandard ancient egyptian funerary prayers in fact tell a story of Abraham.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150
Rome is in the middle east? Whoda thunk? Thanks for the history lesson. I also remember they were big into Iron swords and concrete. Had an advanced civilization by most accounts.
Job 38:31-32 Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades,
Or loose the belt of Orion?
Can you bring out Mazzaroth[ (Arcturus) in its season?
Or can you guide the Great Bear (Big Dipper) with its cubs?
Oops, someone paid attention to the constellations
Ever since the 3rd mill. BC
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein
You mentioned bacteria. And although the Bible doesn't mention the bacteria by name, why Leviticus Chapter 14 has a crackerjack way of curing Leprosy.
To paraphrase:
14:2-52) God's law for lepers: Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly away. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient's right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally find another pair of birds. Kill one and dip the live bird in the dead bird's blood. Wipe some blood on the patient's right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle the house with blood 7 times.
Now if that's not science, I don't know what is!!!!
That's as impressive as the advanced Quranic science that says the disease carried by a fly is on one wing, but the cure is on the other. Drop it in your coffee and drink to cure the disease.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 05-06-2016 at 06:57 AM..
The point of the OP is very simple . There is not one shred of knowlwdge in the Bible that was not already known to humans . Absolutely nothing new , in ANY field of knowledge , is provided in 66 books written by the creator of the entire universe writing to a semi literate nomad desert tribe .
The fact that the Bible doesn't mention Chevy trucks or X boxes isn't the point . The point is that God finds absolutely nothing of value that is unknown to the Jews to reveal to them , in 66 books . A group of tribal nomads that think you can tell your wife's honesty by poisoning her and watching the results , or that think you can change the colors and patterns on cattle by feeding them before different colored sticks at a trough , and there is NOTHING in the universe that God feels like should be told the Jews that they don't know ?
If you want people to believe in you, predict a gas giant planet with brilliant rings and multiple moons when such is unknown and unheard of in biblical times . Who could question the reality of God if it predicted Saturn, or other galaxies , both common astronomical knowledge today?
Prime example of atheists creating this tight logic box with the Bible where they can always have a way to apply their skepticism. Let's say the Bible does mention Chevy trucks. There is a verse in the Bible that says in the future, people will drive Chevy trucks. You know what atheists would be saying?
"Well so what, that's just an example of self fulling prophecy, that's all it is. Someone read the Bible and followed the directions and named it Chevy. Proves nothing". That's the exact same argument when I bring up the fact that almost everything the Bible predicted about Israel and the Jews as come true.
Prime example of atheists creating this tight logic box with the Bible where they can always have a way to apply their skepticism. Let's say the Bible does mention Chevy trucks. There is a verse in the Bible that says in the future, people will drive Chevy trucks. You know what atheists would be saying?
"Well so what, that's just an example of self fulling prophecy, that's all it is. Someone read the Bible and followed the directions and named it Chevy. Proves nothing". That's the exact same argument when I bring up the fact that almost everything the Bible predicted about Israel and the Jews as come true.
That's your best argument yet In fact it is exactly the argument used in the counter to 'Paths of the sea'.
The thing is that we can not only show that the 'paths of the sea' was 'self -fulfilling', since Maury (I think it was Maury) thought of that passage and applied it to his discovery (1). In fact, that is the flaw in your argument, Jeff. If the Bible mentioned "Ch*vi" trucks and some bod used the name, that would be 'self fulfilling' in the same way.
But if the Bible predicted that people would later on be carried about by metal carriages that had not horses, but The power of horses pulled from within by metal that moved through the burning of flowing bitumen...well, that would be another matter.
(1) and indeed the discoverer of the 'Paths of the Sea' apparently explained that he already knew that this described ocean currents that were known from antiquity and based his work on that knowledge.
P.s The Israel argument is also a good one. But it is indeed self -fulfilling since the Jews always had a desire to return to Jerusalem. Indeed the desire to help them do so was begun pre -war (Balfour doctrine, wasn't it?) by a politician who thought he was fulfilling prophecy by doing so.
How you like that for self -fulfilling?
And, while it needed Hitler and all that to really kick start the State of Israel...why did it? If that had been God's intention, the Pogroms were enough. Instead of Jews flocking to America, they could have flocked to the middle east.
I know what the answer to that is, Jeff, but I'll leave it to you to think of it.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 05-06-2016 at 08:28 AM..
Prime example of atheists creating this tight logic box with the Bible where they can always have a way to apply their skepticism. Let's say the Bible does mention Chevy trucks. There is a verse in the Bible that says in the future, people will drive Chevy trucks. You know what atheists would be saying?
"Well so what, that's just an example of self fulling prophecy, that's all it is. Someone read the Bible and followed the directions and named it Chevy. Proves nothing". That's the exact same argument when I bring up the fact that almost everything the Bible predicted about Israel and the Jews as come true.
You seem to be stuck on something being said with the NAME of something like, "In the future people will drive Chevy trucks," and this is not what people are saying SHOULD have been in there. Could God not have explained about the Universe (that he supposedly created) in his book? Would that not have caused wonder for the people at the time?
Let me explain the difference to you, Jeff. And before you go off the rails saying I am making fun of you or something, I am not. I am simply trying to explain, nothing more, nothing less.
1) "In the future, you will discover something in the skies that you shall name Saturn."
Now, this would be a self fulfilling prophecy, as when we found something in the sky, anything in the sky, we probably would have named it Saturn.
2) "In the future, you will discover in the skies, new worlds. These worlds will vary greatly. Some will be very large, while others very small. Some will be red, some will be blue. There will be a large one with a ring around it, and another with a giant red spot. There will be some that are on fire, and others that are frozen. Don't fret though, you are perfectly situated in this system, on the only world that can sustain life. There are millions of wonders in the sky, and you shall look upon them in wonder!"
Now this would have given the people great insight, but not have been a self fulfilling prophecy, as we would have found exactly what was said. We then would have looked upon the Bible completely different. Maybe this wasn't just a man made book from the Middle East at all, maybe there is something to this whole God thing.
Instead, there is no mention of ANYTHING outside of the knowledge already held in the area at that time, hence the Bible is almost certainly not the word of God.
That's your best argument yet In fact it is exactly the argument used in the counter to 'Paths of the sea'.
The thing is that we can not only show that the 'paths of the sea' was 'self -fulfilling', since Maury (I think it was Maury) thought of that passage and applied it to his discovery (1). In fact, that is the flaw in your argument, Jeff. If the Bible mentioned "Ch*vi" trucks and some bod used the name, that would be 'self fulfilling' in the same way.
But if the Bible predicted that people would later on be carried about by metal carriages that had not horses, but The power of horses pulled from within by metal that moved through the burning of flowing bitumen...well, that would be another matter.
(1) and indeed the discoverer of the 'Paths of the Sea' apparently explained that he already knew that this described ocean currents that were known from antiquity and based his work on that knowledge.
P.s The Israel argument is also a good one. But it is indeed self -fulfilling since the Jews always had a desire to return to Jerusalem. Indeed the desire to help them do so was begun pre -war (Balfour doctrine, wasn't it?) by a politician who thought he was fulfilling prophecy by doing so.
How you like that for self -fulfilling?
The Jews have been one of the most hated abused groups in human history. They scattered all over the world, but came back to form a nation and revive a dead language. Their tiny nation is the focal point of world politics and a clear path to igniting WWIII. Jerusalem is the location not only the most important religious meccas for Judaism, but for Christians and Muslims, all being the major religions of the world.
Oh yeah, and Israel happens to be very prosperous in a desert wasteland and a worldwide producer of fruit. All predicted in the Bible. But yeah, I'm suppose to believe that they forced all that to happen huh?
There are thousands of historical events that could have happened to prevent such things from happening.
The Jews have been one of the most hated abused groups in human history. They scattered all over the world, but came back to form a nation and revive a dead language. Their tiny nation is the focal point of world politics and a clear path to igniting WWIII. Jerusalem is the location not only the most important religious meccas for Judaism, but for Christians and Muslims, all being the major religions of the world.
Oh yeah, and Israel happens to be very prosperous in a desert wasteland and a worldwide producer of fruit. All predicted in the Bible. But yeah, I'm suppose to believe that they forced all that to happen huh?
There are thousands of historical events that could have happened to prevent such things from happening.
Well, they kinda did, Jeff. They all think it is the Holy Land, which is why they all flock there. Without being told that for their whole lives, we may not have all this conflict in that area. I am not saying that is the case 100%, but it certainly seems likely.
For example. Let's say every American was taught from the time they were born that southern California from San Diego to LA was the Holy Land. They were taught this by their parents, and taught this by their pastors, and teachers, and other family members. At some point, people would start fighting over the land. This would be a prosperous region filled to the brim with people, and a spot that would clearly be a hotbed for violence and other issues.
Now, would you say this was caused because everyone was taught this their whole lives, or caused because of some "divine purpose"?
Look, the point is, it does SEEM to be a self fulfilling prophecy as such. The religions say this is the Holy Land, so issues arise when different religions want it. Is this because it is ACTUALLY the Holy Land and predicted by the Bible, or is it because the people have read their holy books and BELIEVE it is, thus causing all of the issues?
I'm sorry to say, Jeff, that is NOT one of your better arguments. Instead of trying to link the progress of the state of Israel with prophecy, you talk about how hated they were (thanks to Christianity, Jeff), how they revived a dead language (the Hindus did the same after independence) and how they put their European -learned expertise to turning their grabbed land into one that suited them.
So that's supposed to prove ..what? After WWII Japan was a nation on the floor. It tried to manufacture its way out of ruin and the result was the worst industrial joke after the "Great leap forward".
"Back to the Future" put it best. As Doc. opined, "Made in Japan" was a byword for cheap unreliable crap in the 50's. Now as Marty says, "all the best stuff is made in Japan". You want to say that they 'forced all that to happen, huh?'
Yep. That's right, Jeff that's exactly what happened. State of Israel, after perhaps wash your hands after going to the John in Leviticus is the best 'Hidden Knowledge' passage in the Bible, and it really doesn't stand up, when you look at it.
Oh yes. The current problems derive not so much from Israel but from...yep. The Bloody George Bush family whose invasion of Kuwait by way of Saudi Arabia launched Al Quaida and the 2nd and far more detestable Bush purportedly Finished the Job and Al Quaida and dropped us in it up to our collective necks. Inevitably, Israel became the banner for Muslim terrorism rather than US boots on Sacred saudi soil, which wouldn't motivate many suicide bombers, but it was the pubic Bushes, not Israel that kick started the present panic.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 05-06-2016 at 09:47 AM..
Below is a short list of things you won't see mentioned in the Bible ( to the best of my memory . Maybe I'll stand corrected on one or two)
Pi
Germs
Bacteria
Viruses
Special theory of relativity
General theory of relativity
A listing of the planets in our solar system
Galaxies
Electrons
Protons
Neutrons
Any other particle of physics
Calculus
Distance to the sun
Diameter of the moon
Distance to the moon
North America
South America
Australia
The Pacific Ocean
Frozen polar regions
Mt Everest
Kangaroos
Platypus
Llama
Penguins
Native Americans
Australian aborigines
Vaccinations
Printing press ( would have been helpful for printing these Bibles cheaper and faster )
Steam engine
Heimlich maneuver
Abolition of slavery
Equal rights for women
Child protection rights
Or, to put it another and shorter way, there is nothing in the Bible that wasn't already known to man. No new ideas, no new medical advice, no info on math, astronomy, etc, no lands or people's not already known to Jews, no animals not already know to Jews, no new inventions , nothing . In all of a book dictated by God for the benefit of humans, not one single bit of knowledge or advice that wasn't already known to humans . God dictates 66 books and in not a one of them does He reveal anything new to humans .
Wonder why that is ?
Perhaps the reason is that those things are not relevant in the story of man's fall and redemption.
Perhaps the reason is that those things are not relevant in the story of man's fall and redemption.
Or, perhaps those anonymous storytellers from thousands of years ago were not actually channeling a god at all.
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On the contrary "common sense" is found throughout the Bible, for good or bad. Sound reasoning and validated evidence is rather lacking, however.
but I'll leave it to you to think of it.
