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we were part of as group that really believe addiction could be prayed out of you.
My mom said my daughters special needs would be healed if i prayed more.
Very much my background also. Right up there with "when two people are married before god, he makes even bad relationships right." Or as someone else pointed out here yesterday I believe, the situation where a woman married to an abusive drunk was advised by her priest to stay with the marriage because the husband could only harm her body, whereas divorce would put her eternal soul in jeopardy. It is notions like these that so severely limit one's options for effectively dealing with the ordinary mayhem of life, all in the service of some fantasy of what life could or should be like if only people were pious enough, that we are objecting to here.
Whether or not it is religious.
Although of course a great deal of it just so happens to be.
Now the question is are we too PC to admit it and talk openly about it so that, just maybe, we can shed a little actual light on the matter?
No one is suggesting that all religion is equally to blame, or represents the sole cause of mentally ill people not getting proper care. No one is suggesting that this is evidence for some imagined campaign to discredit or eradicate religion from mental healthcare or the world generally.
It is simply pointing out an egregious example of overreach and interference in doctor / patient relationship by an organization which is a religious organization. There is an appropriate response to this by the organization in question which is to immediately correct its unprofessional and immoral requirement that patients go unsupervised cold turkey on their psychotropic meds as a precondition of entry.
We are open to other suggestions, to corrections of fact, etc.
we were part of as group that really believe addiction could be prayed out of you.
My mom said my daughters special needs would be healed if i prayed more.
When I was a kid, we had to pray for my aunt to be healed. She had cerebral palsy and was mentally retarded (Note for those who faint at that term, she died at 61 in the mid-1990s, before she could be fancily relabeled as "challenged" or "differently-abled".)
She was NEVER going to be "healed". She was the way she was because of superstition. Born in 1934 at home during a snowstorm, the nurse got there before the doctor could, and when my aunt was born, she had the amniotic sac over her face. Old superstition referred to this as being born with a "caul", and such children were thought to be able to foretell the future.
The nurse was frightened and wouldn't touch her, so she remained deprived of oxygen until the doctor arrived and removed the membrane. And was sentenced to a life of being crippled and having the mentality of a five-year-old because of the brain damage that occurred.
Prayer wasn't gonna heal that. There was nothing to heal. It was the permanent condition of her brain.
Just because we either don't understand another, or disagree with what they believe, does NOT give us free license to call them "wrong."
Except yes it does. If someone is wrong then we have every much right to point out their error as they have to hold that belief. Respect for peoples beliefs means respecting their right to hold them, not their right not to have them questioned, judged, or even ridiculed.
Respect people. Not beliefs.
When I see someone engage in a diatribe about respecting beliefs.... more often than not what they are advocating is not a respect for a belief, but a silencing of counter beliefs. For example..... you say we should respect their belief and have no license to call them "wrong"... but where is the respect for MY belief that they are wrong?
You would essentially be silencing it. Respect for beliefs goes both ways. If you find your attempts to respect or protect the beliefs of someone leads you to, even a little bit, suggest that someone else should not be expressing theirs..... then you have already missed your own point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th
nonetheless there is no excuse for intolerance or disrespect for a person's beliefs. One's beliefs define a large part of who they are. We all deserve that.
Except there is every excuse for it. Because "idea space" as I like to call it is a free country entirely. Once again I think you need to distinguish between respecting peoples rights to HAVE a belief, and respecting the belief in and of itself. There is an oft cited quote of "I disagree with your opinion, but I would die defending your right to hold it". And THAT is what respect means to me.
The beliefs themselves deserve no respect. They can not be offended, hurt, damaged. They are mere memes. Ideas. Beliefs are open to scrutiny, evaluation, disagreement, ridicule where warranted, and more. And they should be. Robustly so. Because in the real world, beliefs really do matter. They translate into real world effects and events. Sometimes egregiously and horrifically so. We owe it to ourselves as a species not to wrap memes in cotton wool and protect them.... but to subject them to the full continuum of human evaluation and tools where they surface into the public sphere.
And if someone wants to become hurt or offended vicariously on behalf of their beliefs then they have every right to do so. It is their choice. But I am not to be expected to pander to it.
I repeat what I said above, if my opinion is that a certain idea is ridiculous nonsense then I have as much right to hold AND express that belief as the holders of said idea have to hold and express theirs. All too often, as I said, people getting haughty and uppity about respect for beliefs are not doing so equally or fairly. What they are doing is protecting ONE set of beliefs by trying to silence or subdue another. Which rubbishes the ideal they were pretending to espouse in the first place.
Respect people. Not beliefs...And if someone wants to become hurt or offended vicariously on behalf of their beliefs then they have every right to do so. It is their choice. But I am not to be expected to pander to it.
but you don't respect people, that is the problem
the problem is not what you believe
it is how you behave
these are offensive, demeaning, unacceptable behaviors because they show a lack of respect, regardless of the topic under discussion: sarcasm, name-calling, insults, condescension, berating, mocking, belittling
it is not what you are expressing that is the problem;
it's how you are expressing it
["you" in this post is speaking not to one person, but to all those who engage in the behavior described]
Last edited by Tzaphkiel; 05-19-2016 at 07:59 AM..
Nice of you to make things up about me that are not true. But when you are done with lying about me, the fact is yes I do respect people. I simply do not respect beliefs and ideas. I distinguish between beliefs and ideas, and the people who hold them. If you do not, then that is on you, not me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
it is how you behave
If you have an issue with how I behave then you will have to be clearer about how and why. Because you have simply declared there to be a problem with my behavior without actually clarifying what it is. So it is a substance devoid sound bite you offer and little more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
["you" in this post is speaking not to one person, but to all those who engage in the behavior described]
Then take it up with them. Not me. Nothing you just wrote.... despite replying to me..... has anything to do with me. You appear to simply be using my post as a spring board from which to play your own record. And using me in that way.... while accusing others of bad behavior.... is setting off the irony meters here. Because it is neither a nice, nor honest, thing to do.
When I was a kid, we had to pray for my aunt to be healed. She had cerebral palsy and was mentally retarded (Note for those who faint at that term, she died at 61 in the mid-1990s, before she could be fancily relabeled as "challenged" or "differently-abled".)
She was NEVER going to be "healed". She was the way she was because of superstition. Born in 1934 at home during a snowstorm, the nurse got there before the doctor could, and when my aunt was born, she had the amniotic sac over her face. Old superstition referred to this as being born with a "caul", and such children were thought to be able to foretell the future.
The nurse was frightened and wouldn't touch her, so she remained deprived of oxygen until the doctor arrived and removed the membrane. And was sentenced to a life of being crippled and having the mentality of a five-year-old because of the brain damage that occurred.
Prayer wasn't gonna heal that. There was nothing to heal. It was the permanent condition of her brain.
Not true. She just didn't have enough faith.*
*there are people who believe this, especially in fundamentalist Christianity
Good if he has "come-out-of-the-closet" or "admitted" to health issues, anyone with disabilities should never be made to feel ashamed... or is this just a case of projecting? He wasn't bitter at you or at any specific person, but at a system of failure. Is a desire for progress a toxic emotion to you?
These are toxic, offensive behaviors: insulting, name calling, sarcasm, condescension, belittling, mocking, berating
the problem is not what he is expressing, it is how he is expressing it
the problem is not what he believes, it is how he behaves
he (and others who engage in these behaviors regularly on this forum) justify, defend, and rationalize the toxic behavior, rather than seeking to address it. That is not a "desire for progress." It is a willing deliberate intention to continue engaging in toxic offensive behavior.
^ That or you are feeding peoples behaviors into a narrative that allow you to decry what people say without actually addressing a single thing they say. After all, if you can merely pretend they are being mean and nasty, then you do not have to engage intellectually with a single word. You can just dismiss it and run.
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