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I've been pretty critical of AA and their emphasis on the "Higher Power". Looking at their 12 steps, 5-6 directly reference that higher power, or in most cases, God. A credible fully secular organization is:
I'm sure with your expertise you are very cognizant of the dismal success rates with AA that any peer reviewed study has found. It is too bad that the courts still to this day deem it to be a viable solution to addiction. Many in the field take issue with describing those addictions as a disease, rather a choice. You are likely aware of the comments made by Marc Lewis in this article about his book.
Mind you, this is somewhat if not "off topic," but for clarity sake (and the dissemination of accurate information) June is responding to your post. (One never knows who "lurks" here, looking for information or help, and the professional in me feels compelled to clarify and put out accurate information....)
Yes, AA has an abysmal "success rate" but that is due to the "nature of the beast." Addiction is a "concratized" entity in addicts, and addiction is "larger than life" in individuals. VERY difficult to overcome. However, those who have eventually "bottomed out" and who are fortunate enough to get into AA/NA and work the Program do, in most cases, come away with a spiritual belief. It's built into the 12 Steps. I have met many individuals in recovery who were hard-core atheists prior to their getting into recovery. It didn't involve psychotropics, but rather, the commitment to recovery. --And they may well be among the strongest believers I have ever met.
Addiction IS a disease. It is an Axis I diagnosis for a reason. (Psychiatric talk, sorry.) --But yes: It is most definitely a disease given it's progression, what PET scans reveal, and the biological component(s) of addiction. (Heredity being one of them.)
Soooo, now BACK ON TOPIC! -Mensaguy, feel free to infract me, but the therapist in me couldn't sit by and not address faulty information.....
No. Psychotropic medications do NOT make people religious.
There are only two "exceptions" that I can think of where individuals who were previously unbelievers changed their stance:
1) Back in the 60's, many individuals who were NOT believers ingested LSD (or peyote, etc.) and came away having had spiritual experiences. If I'm not mistaken, there was a big "experiment" done at Boston University back then, and many came away in the aftermath being believers, as a result of what the hallucinogenic drug had caused them to experience.
2) People who are in recovery from substance abuse, and attend AA/NA, have been known to become believers when they previously had not been. It doesn't have anything to do with medications, but rather the structure of the Recovery Program that adheres to a "Higher Power."
I'd say that those who took hallucinogens come away with more new-agey, non-dualistic types of beliefs, not so much traditional ones. Although I have observed people trying to explain the unexplained in terms of their religion of origin, so doubtless it's possible some of those who had a significant background in a religious belief, would have returned to it.
As for AA, individual meeting facilitators vary a fair bit in how they interpret and teach the "higher power" stuff. If the meeting leans toward Christianity (as I suspect a majority do) as a template for that then they'd be conditioning the attendee to think and act in those terms and if they credit the supernatural rather than their own efforts for any success they have (and maybe it's even good for some to do that, it probably reduces fear of failure) then of course they are going to hold fast to that faith thereafter.
I'd say that those who took hallucinogens come away with more new-agey, non-dualistic types of beliefs, not so much traditional ones. Although I have observed people trying to explain the unexplained in terms of their religion of origin, so doubtless it's possible some of those who had a significant background in a religious belief, would have returned to it.
As for AA, individual meeting facilitators vary a fair bit in how they interpret and teach the "higher power" stuff. If the meeting leans toward Christianity (as I suspect a majority do) as a template for that then they'd be conditioning the attendee to think and act in those terms and if they credit the supernatural rather than their own efforts for any success they have (and maybe it's even good for some to do that, it probably reduces fear of failure) then of course they are going to hold fast to that faith thereafter.
Do an extensive study or research the efficacy of hallucinogenics. Trust me, there are individuals today who are believers who wouldn't be otherwise.
Can't address the rest of your post, as I want this thread to get back on topic!
Well to the point of the OP, I think that Christian fundamentalism (which is what I'm by far most familiar with) sees mental health care as competition. Their sawdust-trail pitch is that "Jesus is the answer" [by implication, for everything] and therefore, they don't want to see anyone succeed with other methods on the one hand, or attribute failure to Jesus on the other. They tend to have a pretty strong aversion to higher education or intellectual pursuits in general, so the notion that mental illness can be studied, treated, and overcome by PhDs and their alien ideas of ids and Oedipus complexes and anal fixations is an offense to them ... not to mention without scriptural justification.
Put another way, I think they regard personal redemption as their exclusive domain because their dogma says there is only one way to BE redeemed.
This dangerous attitude ... sometimes to the extent that they regard psychological symptoms as demonic ... is tempered in more liberal denominations that are less fixated on rigid paths to solutions to life issues.
Well to the point of the OP, I think that Christian fundamentalism (which is what I'm by far most familiar with) sees mental health care as competition. Their sawdust-trail pitch is that "Jesus is the answer" [by implication, for everything] and therefore, they don't want to see anyone succeed with other methods on the one hand, or attribute failure to Jesus on the other. They tend to have a pretty strong aversion to higher education or intellectual pursuits in general, so the notion that mental illness can be studied, treated, and overcome by PhDs and their alien ideas of ids and Oedipus complexes and anal fixations is an offense to them ... not to mention without scriptural justification.
Put another way, I think they regard personal redemption as their exclusive domain because their dogma says there is only one way to BE redeemed.
This dangerous attitude ... sometimes to the extent that they regard psychological symptoms as demonic ... is tempered in more liberal denominations that are less fixated on rigid paths to solutions to life issues.
In no way am I about to "bad mouth" fundamentalist Christians. I agree with you that they are far less inclined, in most or many cases, to rely on anything other than their beliefs and faith when it comes to dealing with mental illness. That includes both seeing a therapist as well as an attitude towards psychiatric medication.
However, in fairness, I truly think we are talking about a cultural mindset here. "Culture" includes where one is born and has lived, one's inter-generational family culture inherited by the individual, and the basic beliefs that Fundamentalist Christians uphold. Again, I am NOT putting down Fundamentalists. --Do I feel that there are Fundamentalists who could benefit from psychotropic medications to treat what is truly a mental illness? --Yes. However, I also feel that one has to be respectful of the beliefs that one has been raised with, and the cultural norms of where they live, and what they believe. If meeting with a Minister or Pastor, or prayer, bible reading, and church attendance is the "norm" and culturally accepted belief for their lives and the culture that they live in, then that has to be respected.
I may feel differently than how Fundamentalist Christians feel regarding medication for a mental illness, but I nonetheless DO have to extend them the respect that they deserve.
Just because we either don't understand another, or disagree with what they believe, does NOT give us free license to call them "wrong." Respect is the key element, and should be extended to what others believe, whether one feels that Prozac or an anti-psychotic would do the job far better than prayer, church attendance, and bible study. You need to understand that the Fundamentalists feel as adversely in terms of what YOU believe, but nonetheless there is no excuse for intolerance or disrespect for a person's beliefs. One's beliefs define a large part of who they are. We all deserve that.
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Originally Posted by june 7th
In no way am I about to "bad mouth" fundamentalist Christians. I agree with you that they are far less inclined, in most or many cases, to rely on anything other than their beliefs and faith when it comes to dealing with mental illness. That includes both seeing a therapist as well as an attitude towards psychiatric medication.
However, in fairness, I truly think we are talking about a cultural mindset here. "Culture" includes where one is born and has lived, one's inter-generational family culture inherited by the individual, and the basic beliefs that Fundamentalist Christians uphold. Again, I am NOT putting down Fundamentalists. --Do I feel that there are Fundamentalists who could benefit from psychotropic medications to treat what is truly a mental illness? --Yes. However, I also feel that one has to be respectful of the beliefs that one has been raised with, and the cultural norms of where they live, and what they believe. If meeting with a Minister or Pastor, or prayer, bible reading, and church attendance is the "norm" and culturally accepted belief for their lives and the culture that they live in, then that has to be respected.
I may feel differently than how Fundamentalist Christians feel regarding medication for a mental illness, but I nonetheless DO have to extend them the respect that they deserve.
Just because we either don't understand another, or disagree with what they believe, does NOT give us free license to call them "wrong." Respect is the key element, and should be extended to what others believe, whether one feels that Prozac or an anti-psychotic would do the job far better than prayer, church attendance, and bible study. You need to understand that the Fundamentalists feel as adversely in terms of what YOU believe, but nonetheless there is no excuse for intolerance or disrespect for a person's beliefs. One's beliefs define a large part of who they are. We all deserve that.
Take gentle care.
Your professionalism shows through. The rest of us are free to pontificate and judge.
Thanks for the input. Again, this is a bit of a personal issue for my as I have seen the fundamentalist side from my ex. I can't imagine that any of the individuals she had contact with were in any way, shape or form assisted by an attempt to convince them that they needed demons driven out of them. I suspect the obverse is true, that if they may in fact regress if they were in any real program with at least some demonstrated efficacy.
In no way am I about to "bad mouth" fundamentalist Christians. I agree with you that they are far less inclined, in most or many cases, to rely on anything other than their beliefs and faith when it comes to dealing with mental illness. That includes both seeing a therapist as well as an attitude towards psychiatric medication.
However, in fairness, I truly think we are talking about a cultural mindset here ...
I may feel differently than how Fundamentalist Christians feel regarding medication for a mental illness, but I nonetheless DO have to extend them the respect that they deserve.
I guess it depends on how you define "respect they deserve". Ministers of the gospel act in a position of high trust and generally in a counseling role. If they give someone bad counsel ... and there IS such a thing ... people can die or harm themselves or others. It is not like it's an objective fact that piety cures mental illness. If anything, as a mental health professional, you surely recognize that religious ideation figures prominently in a lot of delusional and psychotic thinking.
Of course you can't force people into therapy or to take their meds, and even if you could, their effectiveness would be minimized. Of course you can't usurp other people's adulthood and self-determination. They deserve to have their right to self-determination respected. They deserve to be accepted where they are rather than judged. But unearned respect for demonstrably dangerous and harmful notions, such as the notion that a mentally ill person is demon-possessed? Not at all.
It is not "bad mouthing" fundamentalism to call it on its BS anymore than it's rude to call a patient on their BS. It's honest, and it's loving, actually. The opposite of love is indifference.
I guess it depends on how you define "respect they deserve". Ministers of the gospel act in a position of high trust and generally in a counseling role. If they give someone bad counsel ... and there IS such a thing ... people can die or harm themselves or others. It is not like it's an objective fact that piety cures mental illness. If anything, as a mental health professional, you surely recognize that religious ideation figures prominently in a lot of delusional and psychotic thinking.
Of course you can't force people into therapy or to take their meds, and even if you could, their effectiveness would be minimized. Of course you can't usurp other people's adulthood and self-determination. They deserve to have their right to self-determination respected. They deserve to be accepted where they are rather than judged. But unearned respect for demonstrably dangerous and harmful notions, such as the notion that a mentally ill person is demon-possessed? Not at all.
It is not "bad mouthing" fundamentalism to call it on its BS anymore than it's rude to call a patient on their BS. It's honest, and it's loving, actually. The opposite of love is indifference.
You seem to misunderstand what respect June is referring to, mordant. When you talk about calling them on their BS, It is clear you are abreacting to your own fundamentalist religious beliefs, but they should never become part of the discussion. The mental health of the individual and its probable genesis in neurotransmitter dysfunction should be. If you try to denigrate or berate the religious beliefs, you are seeking a different agenda than the health of the patient. Respecting those beliefs and the continuation of the prayers, etc. while recommending the addition of medicine to make the efforts even more effective is what I suspect June was referring to by the word respect.
The free discipleship program he checked himself into is run by two Assembly of God pastors who hope to heal their patients of addiction, anxiety, anger, depression and “the emotional residue left by mental, physical and sexual abuse” by using prayer, Scripture memorization and developing a closer relationship with God, according to program’s promotional materials. The only requirement of the patients is that you can’t use any mood altering drugs, prescribed or not. Assembly of God churches hold as a cardinal doctrine that the Divine will heal the sick, though they do allow medical help and using prescription drugs if necessary.
How can this be defended? What kind of insane, magical thinking is required to still believe this kind of harmful garbage in today's world. What kind of laws even allow this?
Yeah, I know, he entered the program willingly, and all about the First Amendment, but there are limitations to that right, and magical thinking will cure you rather than medication and science SHOULD be one of those limitations.
But oh no, there is too large a percentage of the population that think their favorite Bronzed Aged campfire story is sacrosanct and needs to be protected, the heck with the consequences.
Bitter? Oh yeah. I had an ex-wife who was studying exorcism to "drive the devil out of the mentally ill", as the devil in them was the true root cause, not any medical issues. She became my ex shortly after starting those classes, so yeah, I have a personal stake in this. She, and this Assembly of God are both bat scat crazy.
Once again religion rears it's ugly head and shows what real harm it causes.
His fault for trusting religion. My tax dollars aren't going to go to having the government break it's back in order to cure some of my less well-off (health wise) neighbors and their families of their own emotional and mental issues.
Of course, "self-help/spirit-help" religions are just corporations that ultimately rely on government-sanctioned money, so there should be at least good controls to religious and nonreligious corporations engaging in such money-grubbing and pseudoscientific "public service" endeavors. I'm not sure what controls exist for any non-religious corporations that do such similar acts, but those controls (and there should be good and cheap controls) should also be shared by religious corporations.
on the topic of mental illness and your own bitterness and toxic emotions, what professional mental health programs and services do you use for your mental health, cupper, since you freely and openly admit to the need for it?
Good if he has "come-out-of-the-closet" or "admitted" to health issues, anyone with disabilities should never be made to feel ashamed... or is this just a case of projecting? He wasn't bitter at you or at any specific person, but at a system of failure. Is a desire for progress a toxic emotion to you?
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-Mensaguy, feel free to infract me, but the therapist in me couldn't sit by and not address faulty information.....
