The concept of 'sin' in all religions and cultures. (church, priests, suicide)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Cruithne

As an atheist I don't believe in the concept of sin.
I just believe that people should respect one another, be nice to one another and not hurt one another or other animals.
The Golden Rule basically.

As long as people live by this I'm basically good with how people live their lives.

I'm interested to know if other religions other than Christianity hold with the concept of sin?

You wanted responses from non-Christians, but hey, Vizio has told me I'm not a Christian, so I guess I'm not.

I would just like to know if you, as an atheist, have a word you would use when a person does something his own sense of morality tells him is wrong. You see, I believe that to sin is to either voluntarily transgress one of God's laws (for those who believe in God) or who behave in a way that goes contrary to what one's own conscience tells him is right. I believe that all people have a basic sense of what is right and wrong, whether they believe in God or not. But let's say, for instance, that murder was not illegal. A murderer could not be said to be a criminal, but could we say that he had sinned against his conscience?

[GoCardinals]

Originally Posted by Cruithne

As an atheist I don't believe in the concept of sin.
I just believe that people should respect one another, be nice to one another and not hurt one another or other animals.
The Golden Rule basically.

As long as people live by this I'm basically good with how people live their lives.

.

And YOU KNOW that it's not gonna happen where everyone in the world will start practicing this ideaology, and we will enter into a Euphoria.
It's NOT gonna happen.

So let's wake up and deal with reality. The reality of human nature.

We as humans have the potential of doing good, and we also have the potential of doing bad - including of inflicting a lot of harm to others.

It's then up to the each individual as to which path he wants to take?

Those who take the path of doing good, may also make mistakes but they regret and try to continue wth the effort of doing good. Religion could be an inspiration to many such people; however, it's not necessary.

And those who take the path of doing bad (including harming others) just don't care. A WRONG INTERPRETATION of their religious faith may play a part in some cases but it's not always the case.

God does not tell its followers to grow long beards and start taking innocent lives under the loud slogans of Allah Akbar

God does not tell its followers to rape young children in churches and synagogues

God does not tell its followers to gendercide the female baby fetuses (a wide practice in Hindu India)

All such acts are actually great sins in the eyes of God in all religions.

So, no matter what you do, you will always have some people who will take the path of doing bad and/or harm others. But what we can do is to help improve the situation.

To deal with this one of the dimensions of human behavior (pursuit of potential lust, greed and selfishness, evil urges etc that could hurt others), human societies made laws and judicial systems (which vary from society to society) and the idea of punishment (for convicted crimes/sins) was introduced as "served justice" and also as a "deterrent."

However, human justice system is not always perfect - many people get away with crimes. I mean from very tiny small crimes to very huge crimes.

In comes the concept of sin. The definition of sin may also vary from religion to religion but the fundamental idea is common in most cases.

So the belief in sin acts a second layer of deterrent deep in the human mind, where a person's inner self tries to stop him before he commits a sin (which could be a crime by humans laws). The faith in divine justice makes a person believe that he can't get away with it by hiring a smart attorney or by fooling the system. So better not do it - to begin with.

The idea of sin also has a reciprocal idea.
Human laws and judicial system, carries out punishment for breaking the law, but it does not always reward equally to those who obey the law.
For example, how many times have you been given a $50 reward check by the traffic police for crossing the green light?

But for those who refrain from doing a bad act due to it being a sin, are hopeful for a double dip where they hope to get rewarded by God for not doing the sin.

So there are two layers of incentives for believers. Avoid sin to avoid the consequences, and avoid sins to get rewarded.

The belief in Divine justice also gives hope to victims of sins who couldn't get justice in this life. These victims are hopeful to get justice of God in the hereafter. For example, millions of innocent Jewish people killed during the holocaust. Justice WILL BE served to Hitler for them.

I don't claim that I know everything and I have all the answers but I will give you a short overview of concept of sin in Islam as its my faith.

First - unlike Christianity, all children are born sinless. Their souls are pure and clean. Children that die before maturity go straight to heaven - no questions asked and no religious association mandatory.

Second - There are two major type of sins for normal adults.

A - There are sins that are between a man and his God. There is no third party involved. For example the sin of drinking alcohol, the sin of gambling with one's own money, the sin of eating pork, the sin of not praying on time etc
These sins are forgiven by God, if the human sincerely repents and tries his best not to do it again.

B - There are sins where one man's act harms others and/or violates their rights - These could be stealing from someone, deceiving someone, hurting someone (both physically and/or by abusive language), taking the life of someone, pursuading someone to commit sins, raping someone, pre-emptive attacking someone to get their oil in the name of finding Weapons of Mass Destruction etc.

No sir, God does NOT forgive these sins.

If the sinner wants forgiveness, then he must seek forgiveness from the person he has hurt otherwise it's a simple eye for an eye rule. And the sinner WILL face consequences under the weight of divine justice.

God could possibly forgive such a sinner but in that case the victim is also rewarded with a much higher reward that he will be pleased and satisfied with the final outcome - and obviously that reward comes in the hereafter.


In my personal opinion, there is a very large majority of human beings who refrain from breaking the laws and hurt others due to religious faith that classifies such criminal acts as sin.

If it was not for good religious people, this world would have a lot more criminals who would simply follow their evil egos without any care, as long as they could dodge the human made laws and judicial systems.

The belief in "sin and consequences" does play a positive role of creating a deterrence, and safety for others.

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by ukrkoz

SIN is willing thinking or doing something one knows is wrong or against something one knows is right, against rightness.
Voice of conscience will always warn one on this matter.
There are inside and outside sins.
Inside sins are sins against one's body. Sins against one's thinking.
Outside sins are sins against nature. Sins against bodies of others. Sins against thinking of others.

That's fine. In fact 'Sin' is quite a handy label. Better than the rather clumsy 'moral and ethical right and wrong". I'd be tempted to use it if it were not for the religious connotations. not that I mind those as such, but it does tempt the theists to use it as a point -scorer.

Originally Posted by JB from NC

Sin exists in Judaism as well, although we differ greatly from Christianity in several areas.

For us, failing to follow any of the 613 mitzvot (commandments) that apply to us is a sin. Failing to give tzadakah (often translated as charity) to the needy is a sin. Being hateful to others is a sin. Being dishonest in business is a sin. Failing to keep kosher is a sin.

But we don't hold that anyone other than us are required to follow our laws, and we don't believe in eternal punishment for committing a sin; we rectify the situation by making it right with anyone we have wronged, by teshuvah (atonement), and by altering our behavior to keep from doing the action in the future.

Depending on how you define "sin", I'd say that just about every belief system is going to some concept of it.

As does humanism,which is a social system not based on supposed god -given rules. Thus 'sin' is (it seems to me) a religious concept linked to a god's say -so. Humanism doesn't have "Sin" at all, but right and wrong based on morality and ethics.

Judaism I believe doesn't have much interest in imposing its' "Sin' regulations on anyone else. Unfortunately the other two religions of the Book, while saying they don't want to do that, in fact, do.

[Cruithne]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

You wanted responses from non-Christians, but hey, Vizio has told me I'm not a Christian, so I guess I'm not.

I would just like to know if you, as an atheist, have a word you would use when a person does something his own sense of morality tells him is wrong. You see, I believe that to sin is to either voluntarily transgress one of God's laws (for those who believe in God) or who behave in a way that goes contrary to what one's own conscience tells him is right. I believe that all people have a basic sense of what is right and wrong, whether they believe in God or not. But let's say, for instance, that murder was not illegal. A murderer could not be said to be a criminal, but could we say that he had sinned against his conscience?

No that's great Katzpur. I welcome comments from Christians, just not cantankerous Christians .

I guess the answer to your first question would be no, I don't have a catch-all word for the situations you describe. I associate the word 'sin' with:
a) an act you have to feel guilty about and either repent to god about or ask for forgiveness about and so on or
b) original sin.
I associate both a) and b) with god so no I don't recognise the term.

To give you some background, my parents never once mentioned the word 'sin'. As a family we would go to church occasionally (Anglican) and I don't remember the word being used in church either. It's not something the Anglican church is very hung up on, at least in my limited experience. The only times I heard it used growing up, was on television.

I was well into my late teens before I attended a Catholic Baptism, and I remember being quite shocked after the service, - a relative commenting about how you could see the baby was now somehow cleansed of sin (I can't remember the wording used) and everybody nodding in agreement. I remember the dawning realisation of what people meant by 'original sin'. Honestly I thought it was quite an immoral and odd thing - basically judging people guilty before they have even done anything. Here's this tiny baby innocently lying there minding it's own business, and because someone sprinkled some water on it's head, now suddenly the baby is absolved of sin? No sorry, I just think this is a terrible way to view things. The baby is clearly completely innocent in the first place.

As to the second part of your question, I would agree. I think most (not all) people have an innate sense of right and wrong. Funnily enough I just wrote a post about this on another thread a few days ago, so I'll just repeat what I said there:

I think human morality is for the most part dependent on culture, laws, traditions and environment, but I think almost all humans are born with an innate sense of right and wrong.
However, I think this varies enormously from person to person.
We are a planet of individuals, with our brains wired in an infinite number of ways. I think some rare people are born with very little empathy. Those people might requires more nurture /guidance than nature to interact with others.

I think good parenting is essential whatever the case. Even then, I know some people who have had terrible upbringings and still managed to turn out well. Personality has an awful lot to do with it.



An example of one of a number of studies on this subject:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

[Matadora]

[nateswift]

By setting the "golden rule" standard you have made a "mark" to meet, and "sin" is nothing more than failure to do so. All the rest of the baggage attached to the word is cultural.

[zthatzmanz28]

Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801

I subscribe to a magazine called The Sun. It has a lot of good writing--essays, poetry, fiction--often on controversial subjects, including spirituality.

One of the essays once approached "sin" as our inability to reach our full potential, to be all we were meant to be. I found that an interesting and useful perspective.

I loved the SUN. I had it when I was in Madison. Sin, as used by religion, is intended to shame and control others.
This is something we as humans learn. I am reminded of a time I was teaching a 2nd grade class. The day had just ended and one girl was taking her time leaving as she wanted to make sure all the toys were properly placed on the shelves.
I commented how great it was that she took the time to care for the toys and asked if she had a ride home or walked. She said her mom usually picked her up and they sometimes went to the store after school.

Another teacher happened to walk by and see the girl. The teacher came into the room and asked her why she was still in the class. The teacher then lectured her about being late and that it is EMBARRASSING to be late. The girls wondered why it was embarrassing. The teacher said YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE EMBARRASSED DO YOU? As the teacher looked right into her eyes about 5 inches from her face.

The girls turned and RAN out the door crying worried her mom might be mad and punish her for being an embarrassment..

This is how religion treats people--by creating mythological "threats" and offering the ONLY solution as being available in the church.

[zthatzmanz28]

Is that "A" for AEROSMITH? Maybe Steven Tyler can set us free?

Or is that "A" (not to be confused with the Scarlet Letter) represent ANARCHY?

[Mightyqueen801]

Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28

I loved the SUN. I had it when I was in Madison. Sin, as used by religion, is intended to shame and control others.
This is something we as humans learn. I am reminded of a time I was teaching a 2nd grade class. The day had just ended and one girl was taking her time leaving as she wanted to make sure all the toys were properly placed on the shelves.
I commented how great it was that she took the time to care for the toys and asked if she had a ride home or walked. She said her mom usually picked her up and they sometimes went to the store after school.

Another teacher happened to walk by and see the girl. The teacher came into the room and asked her why she was still in the class. The teacher then lectured her about being late and that it is EMBARRASSING to be late. The girls wondered why it was embarrassing. The teacher said YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE EMBARRASSED DO YOU? As the teacher looked right into her eyes about 5 inches from her face.

The girls turned and RAN out the door crying worried her mom might be mad and punish her for being an embarrassment..

This is how religion treats people--by creating mythological "threats" and offering the ONLY solution as being available in the church.

What you described sounds like abuse, because it is. Made me angry. I would never again be involved in a church that focuses on sin the way the church in which I grew up did. It was damaging.

I just reupped my subscription to The Sun a couple of months ago. I'd let it lapse because the issues were piling up and I had no time to read them. Now that I've sorta retired, I can get back to it.

[mordant]

Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801

What you described sounds like abuse, because it is. Made me angry. I would never again be involved in a church that focuses on sin the way the church in which I grew up did. It was damaging.

I just reupped my subscription to The Sun a couple of months ago. I'd let it lapse because the issues were piling up and I had no time to read them. Now that I've sorta retired, I can get back to it.

This past Saturday the parents of a 7 year old boy who had disobeyed them in some way, got in the family car and drove away, leaving him in the woods as "punishment". They returned 5 minutes later to retrieve him, after putting what they considered a good scare into him, but could not find him. Last I ready yesterday afternoon there were hundreds of people searching for him. This is in Japan, in a dense wooded area full of brown bears.

This is the kind of warped notions that get into the heads of people who are raised in an authoritarian fashion, whether religion is the impetus for it or not. I don't know which is worse for a 7 year old boy, to be eaten by a brown bear and be done with it, or to grow up being taught that you do the "right thing" robotically, to avoid heinous punishment and shaming, rather than being taught empathy, compassion and lovingkindness.

But less immediately disastrous versions of this story are told constantly, all over the world, every day.