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Yes. While I am playing it straight with Gldnblls here, I doubt that he is playing straight with us. "God = everything" is a neat trick for "proving that it exists" (and once you have an a priori "God -Label" you can expect a load of baggage to subsequently be affixed to it That's a simile I like) and as soon as you start trying to block the baggage at customs (to beat the metaphor to a whimpering frazzle) you get the "You can't hit me!" trick of claiming that none of those things apply to the "God" that is categorized by the label ("Those are beliefs that other people have about "God!").
That is why the 'intelligence' point is so important. That is the one thng that can't really be avoided because Gdrule (and indeed Mystic phd who is the author and instigator of this ploy) know how silly it would sound to say that God is everything - but it isn't intelligent - it is just blind natural physical processes.
But they can't admit to it being intelligent, for that is 'baggage' that they then have to get through customs. And they have a real job there, because I/D, Complexity and Order (as evidence for a god) do not wash and do not wash either in science or the law courts.
Mystic knows this, which is why he makes a very good argument on the philosophical view of consciousness (particularly dualism vs.monism. Though I think there is a good counter). Gdrule doesn't bother with all that. Instead he fields a remarkably cunning legal trick. Of the "This announcement void where prohibited by law" type.
"Everything -God is intelligent to the extent that everything is intelligent." Unpacked, it is meaningless, but it was pretty cute, no? He is implying that he is claiming intelligence for the "God" while actually not saying that he is saying that. I wonder whether he has legal training?
In commercial law,of course.
First...as you know, I was Atheist since my earliest teens...and never been Religious.
Mystic taught me that "GOD" is not "Religious Deities" and I had "thrown out the baby with the dirty bathwater" when I rejected the theological stuff I was taught as a kid due to the tradition and culture of my ethnicity and family.
Mystic is much smarter than me and perceives and understands much more deeply than I...and is able to go beyond Pantheism to Panentheism.
I am an honest guy and I'm not gonna feign a knowledge and perception I don’t actually possess.
I learned enough from Mystic to be more than grateful for...he has my unending appreciation.
The main difference I now have with most of the Religious and Atheists I meet...is that I am fully tolerant of anothers beliefs that differ from mine. People can believe whatever they want to believe. And I am even totally cool with them trying to sell me on it. If they teach me about it enough, and I am around them...I will even show the respect to participate in some of their rituals... such as praying and stuff. Especially at funerals, weddings, and when they "bless" some benevolent thing I am assisting in doing or providing for the needy and less fortunate.
It seems many are stuck on pinning a prerequisite of "human-like" traits on "GOD", that they then claim the possession of such are required for "GOD" to be "GOD".
"ALL" may have some mojo to it that goes beyond what we know as "intelligence". But that doesn't matter. It is what it is. And what it is that I know it to be is more than the minimum qualifications to move me to deem it "GOD".
Mystic taught me that "GOD" is not "Religious Deities" and I had "thrown out the baby with the dirty bathwater" when I rejected the theological stuff I was taught as a kid due to the tradition and culture of my ethnicity and family.
So, you agree that the God of the Bible is mythological and a figment of people's imaginations since it is in fact a religious deity?
Nothing you ever present refutes the EXISTENCE of God. You spend virtually all your efforts on refuting Bible God and other religious nonsense, NOT the existence of God for which you have NO refutation, just preference.It is clear I have underestimated the lack of understanding and overestimated the capability to understand my views. The ONLY creating going on is the components within reality transforming from one form to another. All the Creator nonsense is just that, as is the infinite regression crap. God (reality) just IS and everything is the way it is because that is how God exists and reproduces. What we measure and call energy/mass/momentum and consciousness are simply vibrational manifestations of God, period. Everything exists because God exists, no creation involved. Our reality is how God functions. The more we learn about how reality functions the more we know about God.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I will try to explain why I reject the Creator nonsense. Creation is a concept born of our human experience of beginnings and ends. It does not apply to reality which is transformative. So science can observe God and the effects of God. It has amassed quite an inventory of such observations and effects using the one transcendent aspect of reality we possess - consciousness. Consciousness is the aspect of reality that remains beyond direct observation, as are dark energy and dark matter, and only its effects are observable, as are the effects of the dark stuff. Since the dark stuff (including our consciousness) seems to comprise more than 95% of our reality, using what we glean from the less than 5% to deny God seems a bit hubristic.
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Originally Posted by wallflash
This statement here is why many reject this concept of God . Unless this quote is improperly stated and not conveying it's writers true intent , this quote seems to be saying God gets its intelligence from its creation . Which makes it not a real God to most .
Wrong. There is no creation, just transformation. (See above.)
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This sounds almost rational today when we can assign the collective intelligence of man to God , but let's think this through. What about when humans didn't exist ? Did Gods intelligence drastically drop ? What about before mammals existed ? Was God 1/4 as intelligent then as it is now? What about when only insects and single cell life populated the Earth? Was Gods intelligence reduced to that of a cockroach at that time ? What about when no life existed at all in the universe immediately after and for millions of years after the BB ? Did God have any intelligence at all at that point ?
This reflects the typical vanity and hubris of humanity - thinking we are the only consciousness and intelligence within this vast reality. That is like a single neuron in our brain thinking it is the source of our consciousness and intellgience.
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This is why this angle is mere wordplay . People who discuss God here are not referring to something whose level of intelligence changes with whatever the most intelligent current life form provides it with such . If humans were to go extinct , would God get dumber as a result ? And this isn't a religious thing, or Godophobia , it's a common sense thing . A true God of any sort would not evolve with its creation . It would be God, period, no matter the rest of creation , or none at all .
This is silly. God is a LIVING God and has all the attributes of life. We are simply embryonic parts of that and unable to understand fully our place within God until we are "born again" as Spirit upon our physical death and join God's Spirit.
First...as you know, I was Atheist since my earliest teens...and never been Religious.
Mystic taught me that "GOD" is not "Religious Deities" and I had "thrown out the baby with the dirty bathwater" when I rejected the theological stuff I was taught as a kid due to the tradition and culture of my ethnicity and family.
Mystic is much smarter than me and perceives and understands much more deeply than I...and is able to go beyond Pantheism to Panentheism.
I am an honest guy and I'm not gonna feign a knowledge and perception I don’t actually possess.
I learned enough from Mystic to be more than grateful for...he has my unending appreciation.
The main difference I now have with most of the Religious and Atheists I meet...is that I am fully tolerant of anothers beliefs that differ from mine. People can believe whatever they want to believe. And I am even totally cool with them trying to sell me on it. If they teach me about it enough, and I am around them...I will even show the respect to participate in some of their rituals... such as praying and stuff. Especially at funerals, weddings, and when they "bless" some benevolent thing I am assisting in doing or providing for the needy and less fortunate.
It seems many are stuck on pinning a prerequisite of "human-like" traits on "GOD", that they then claim the possession of such are required for "GOD" to be "GOD".
"ALL" may have some mojo to it that goes beyond what we know as "intelligence". But that doesn't matter. It is what it is. And what it is that I know it to be is more than the minimum qualifications to move me to deem it "GOD".
Thank you for the explanation. What does matter is intelligence. If that is what is agreed to be the minimum requirement, then we need some convincing evidence of it. Anything 'beyond' that is neither here nor there, mainly because it cannot at all be used to get around that minimum requirement of Intelligence.
Of course you can believe (or not) whatever you want. If there is any agenda here, it is that you understand that there are very good reasons for us Not using the term "God" for Nature and it is nothing to do with God -phobia or not knowing what is in the dictionary. is because the minimum requirement for that term to sensibly applied to the universe we know of has not been demonstrated.
Wrong. There is no creation, just transformation. (See above.)
Not wrong at all . No life existed that we know of before it formed on Earth . The materials are simply transformations of other materials and energy, but the spark of life is brand new for this Earth in this go round . In any event you understand what I meant by the word creation . And nothing changes about my point . In GRs worldview God gets its intelligence from the sentient life in the universe, and apparently has none of its own.
Quote:
This reflects the typical vanity and hubris of humanity - thinking we are the only consciousness and intelligence within this vast reality. That is like a single neuron in our brain thinking it is the source of our consciousness and intelligence.
No hubris at all. We ARE the most intelligent beings we know of, and we , including you, have no clue if any other intelligence exists anywhere else in the universe or not . But even if it did, the point would not change . Your version of God is only as intelligent as the most intelligent beings in the universe , whether that is us or some alien life in another galaxy . And no matter how much intelligent life there is today all over the universe , there was none for a few million or billion years after the BB , so was God intelligent when there was no sentient life anywhere in the universe , which was obviously the case in the early stages of the universe ? Was God intelligent when the only life anywhere in the universe was single cell life on some random planet ? Or did God only become truly intelligent when life forms developed reasoning brains , or whatever thinking organ some other life form has ?
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This is silly. God is a LIVING God and has all the attributes of life. We are simply embryonic parts of that and unable to understand fully our place within God until we are "born again" as Spirit upon our physical death and join God's Spirit.
This angle is beat to death and a dead end . This " all the attributes " stuff is meaningless in the discussion of whether your version of God has intelligence beyond that of the separate sentient parts of the universe . The second part is unprovable mystical theism .
Sorry for typing errors my wife had a six vein bypass and just got to her recovery room from ICU . My dog had a ruptured
tumor and my daughter blew out her ACL and MCL (odd and weird day). Very tired.
Wrong. There is no creation, just transformation. (See above.) This reflects the typical vanity and hubris of humanity - thinking we are the only consciousness and intelligence within this vast reality. That is like a single neuron in our brain thinking it is the source of our consciousness and intellgience.
This is silly. God is a LIVING God and has all the attributes of life. We are simply embryonic parts of that and unable to understand fully our place within God until we are "born again" as Spirit upon our physical death and join God's Spirit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wallflash
Not wrong at all . No life existed that we know of before it formed on Earth . The materials are simply transformations of other materials and energy, but the spark of life is brand new for this Earth in this go round . In any event you understand what I meant by the word creation . And nothing changes about my point . In GRs worldview God gets its intelligence from the sentient life in the universe, and apparently has none of its own.
Wrong. "That we know of" is correct. God IS the sentient life in the universe and everything else. There is no separate anything.
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No hubris at all. We ARE the most intelligent beings we know of, and we , including you, have no clue if any other intelligence exists anywhere else in the universe or not . But even if it did, the point would not change . Your version of God is only as intelligent as the most intelligent beings in the universe , whether that is us or some alien life in another galaxy .
That is like saying we are no more intelligent than a single neuron in our brain. Silly. You are familiar with the whole is greater than the sum of its parts?
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And no matter how much intelligent life there is today all over the universe , there was none for a few million or billion years after the BB , so was God intelligent when there was no sentient life anywhere in the universe , which was obviously the case in the early stages of the universe ?
What is your evidence that there was no Consciousness? Consciousness is a field and everything in our reality is simply comprised of myriad manifestations of field.
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Was God intelligent when the only life anywhere in the universe was single cell life on some random planet ? Or did God only become truly intelligent when life forms developed reasoning brains , or whatever thinking organ some other life form has ?
Very anthropocentric thinking.
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This angle is beat to death and a dead end . This " all the attributes " stuff is meaningless in the discussion of whether your version of God has intelligence beyond that of the separate sentient parts of the universe . The second part is unprovable mystical theism .
Much of your objection is based on unprovable premises about our reality.
Wrong. "That we know of" is correct. God IS the sentient life in the universe and everything else. There is no separate anything.That is like saying we are no more intelligent than a single neuron in our brain. Silly. You are familiar with the whole is greater than the sum of its parts? What is your evidence that there was no Consciousness? Consciousness is a field and everything in our reality is simply comprised of myriad manifestations of field. Very anthropocentric thinking. Much of your objection is based on unprovable premises about our reality.
This same objection holds true for your god-concept. You keep asserting things, like the vibrations we observe are manifestations of god.
What's the point? Yes, we can both agree that the universe exists. The problem is that you put this additional label of god on it for no good reason that I can see. Why bother? If god is synonymous with the universe, why do we need the god part? If god has some characteristic that is separate from the universe, you haven't shown this to be a true fact.
Sorry for typing errors my wife had a six vein bypass and just got to her recovery room from ICU . My dog had a ruptured
tumor and my daughter blew out her ACL and MCL (odd and weird day). Very tired.
Sounds like one of those days that should have been cancelled due to lack of interest! Hope everyone has a speedy recovery.
Wrong. "That we know of" is correct. God IS the sentient life in the universe and everything else. There is no separate anything.That is like saying we are no more intelligent than a single neuron in our brain. Silly. You are familiar with the whole is greater than the sum of its parts? What is your evidence that there was no Consciousness? Consciousness is a field and everything in our reality is simply comprised of myriad manifestations of field. Very anthropocentric thinking. Much of your objection is based on unprovable premises about our reality.
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Originally Posted by fishbrains
This same objection holds true for your god-concept. You keep asserting things, like the vibrations we observe are manifestations of god.
What's the point? Yes, we can both agree that the universe exists. The problem is that you put this additional label of god on it for no good reason that I can see. Why bother? If god is synonymous with the universe, why do we need the god part? If god has some characteristic that is separate from the universe, you haven't shown this to be a true fact.
You keep leaving out the transcendent feature of our reality because it is what we are using to think about these things. You fail to include our thinking in the everything we think about. It is what is actually in the image and likeness of God. And like God, what we create within it in our imagination is devoid of the constraints of our material reality.
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That's a simile I like) and as soon as you start trying to block the baggage at customs (to beat the metaphor to a whimpering frazzle) you get the "You can't hit me!" trick of claiming that none of those things apply to the "God" that is categorized by the label ("Those are beliefs that other people have about "God!").
