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Good summary. I know of no Christian doctrine that states we MUST kill or convert others in order to reach salvation. There is no promise of a heavenly reward of 72 virgins or any other reward, either.
That's correct. In Christianity, AFAIK, you achieve salvation via good life and repentance. In Islam, you can do the same - but there's always a shortcut to Heaven via Jihad. Which makes it inherently violent in nature (there's always hope that eventually they will make this socially unacceptable, but it would be hard to separate the concept of Jihad from the practical application of their religion).
First of all, my apologies--you started it by mentioning a thread on homosexuality, so I assumed it was about that.
God declares that certain things are sinful. Our belief or unbelief in him is irrelevant to whether or not it is sinful.
Having said that, I have, in conversations, said that certain behaviors are sinful. No--I do not go around bashing people with a list of sinful behaviors.
Again, are you claiming that you have never in any discussion here claimed that certain behaviors are sinful and that those people, even if not followers of your faith , are sinning by doing these things ? I'm sure a few posters wouldn't mind going back through your posts to find your comments about such things .
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Think about it: God commands that we share our faith. Jesus is the cure for what ails all of mankind -- sin. Without realizing that one needs a savior, there is no need for Jesus. Having said that, if you don't believe, and don't care to hear it? Why would I want to beat you over the head with my Bible?
It is possible to share the story of Jesus without haranguing people over what is or is not a sin according to your faith . Jesus commands you to make disciples , and then teach those disciples , who by joining have agreed to follow the tenets of the faith . None of this has anything to do with proclaiming how people outside your faith are sinners for not following your faiths rules .
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Why would I? For starters, their god is not God. He does not have the authority to define sin.
And non Christians don't regard your God as real, or if they believe in some sort of generic god they don't agree with your version. So you hold contradictory positions here . You do not feel you should have to care about the views on sin from other faiths you don't agree with, but you feel you have the right to point out the sinful behavior of people who don't follow your faith .
Again, are you claiming that you have never in any discussion here claimed that certain behaviors are sinful and that those people, even if not followers of your faith , are sinning by doing these things ?
Of course I have. I have said as much.
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It is possible to share the story of Jesus without haranguing people over what is or is not a sin according to your faith . Jrsus commands you to make disciples , and then teach those disciples , who by joining have agreed to follow the tenets of the faith . None of this has anything to do with proclaiming how people outside your faith are sinners for not following your faiths rules .
Jesus came to pay for the sins of the world-- to die for those that would realize their spiritual condition and believe in him. He didn't come to show us the way, or teach us how to love, or any of that. He came to rescue sinners -- of which I am chief among them. Why would I want to NOT mention sin?
He didn't tell us to simply wait for them to come and agree to live by our faith. That's not how it works.
Having said that, if you don't believe, you don't believe. I'm not going to continue to harass you. Nor will I continue to harp on the fact that your behavior is sinful.
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And non Christians don't regard your God as real, or if they believe in some sort of generic god they don't agree with your version. So you hold contradictory positions here . Ou do not feel you should have to care about the views on sin from other faiths you don't agree with, but you feel you have the right to point out the sinful behavior of people who don't follow your faith .
OK? Again....so what? No one is suggesting we continue to beat on anyone with a bible.
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You don't get it, do you?
I get it, yes. I realize that there are non-Christians that have been told in no uncertain terms that they MUST stop their sin in order for God to love them. Many Christians present a type of Gospel that suggests that we must just simply behave for God to love them instead of simply believing in Jesus.
I realize that yes--some Christians are very judgmental and are very mean-spirited. I apologize for that. I don't think we are to require anyone to live by our standards in order to please God.
Having said that, I have pointed out that we are US citizens--and we do have a say in what our society looks like, just like anyone else. We can vote for the leaders we want, and we can work to enact legislation that we believe would benefit our society.
That's correct. In Christianity, AFAIK, you achieve salvation via good life and repentance.
Actually...it's by faith in Jesus. That's it. Of course, as a result, it is expected that we grow in Christ and we do become conformed over time to God's standards of holiness.
It's about respect. I'm Christian--what some people call liberal Christian, what some conservatives call "not really Christian". I don't believe the Bible was dictated by God Himself, and I believe the basic commandment is to love God and our neighbors by doing what we can to promote justice in our society and help the poor. Doesn't matter what you call me. My faith is between me and God, and no other person has anything valid to say about it.
I work for Satmar Chassidic Jews. If you know anything about their religion, you would know that they follow a lot of rules that outsiders would think are ridiculous, from the way they dress to unscrewing their refrigerator lightbulb on Friday evening so as not to kindle fire on Shabbos. It's not MY belief, but I am not going to tell them that they are "wrong" and they seem to respect me for who I am when I mention I went out for dinner with the women from my church, for example. There's a Sikh engineer at the firm who wears turbans in lovely bright spring colors. He gets respect, too.
It's the only way to live. Once you start separating yourself from the rest of the human race and group any sort of "other" people into a THEM and declaring the Thems WRONG, the problems begin. For some reason it's natural for us to want to do that, but we have to fight against that inclination, always.
Actually...it's by faith in Jesus. That's it. Of course, as a result, it is expected that we grow in Christ and we do become conformed over time to God's standards of holiness.
But what wallflash is saying is do not expect that of people who do not believe as you do. Or if you do believe that way, keep it internal. You are not in any position to tell someone else how they should live. If someone comes to you and is interested in Jesus because they see it does something for you that they want, then speak to them, by all means.
But what wallflash is saying is do not expect that of people who do not believe as you do.
I get that. Believe it or not, I'm different from what you see online. What I post on these boards are frequently in response to people attacking Christianity. I defend Christianity. People don't like being told their wrong--even when they're attacking others and telling them they're wrong.
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Or if you do believe that way, keep it internal. You are not in any position to tell someone else how they should live. If someone comes to you and is interested in Jesus because they see it does something for you that they want, then speak to them, by all means.
You do realize that in the book of Acts, the early Christians actually did go door to door and proclaim the Gospel in the marketplace, right? We are not simply to wait for people to come to us.
Heck, even now, you're telling ME how to do things. By your logic, you wouldn't be doing that if you really believed what you said.
Jesus came to pay for the sins of the world-- to die for those that would realize their spiritual condition and believe in him. He didn't come to show us the way, or teach us how to love, or any of that. He came to rescue sinners -- of which I am chief among them. Why would I want to NOT mention sin?
He didn't tell us to simply wait for them to come and agree to live by our faith. That's not how it works.
Having said that, if you don't believe, you don't believe. I'm not going to continue to harass you. Nor will I continue to harp on the fact that your behavior is sinful.
OK? Again....so what? No one is suggesting we continue to beat on anyone with a bible.
I get it, yes. I realize that there are non-Christians that have been told in no uncertain terms that they MUST stop their sin in order for God to love them. Many Christians present a type of Gospel that suggests that we must just simply behave for God to love them instead of simply believing in Jesus.
I realize that yes--some Christians are very judgmental and are very mean-spirited. I apologize for that. I don't think we are to require anyone to live by our standards in order to please God.
Having said that, I have pointed out that we are US citizens--and we do have a say in what our society looks like, just like anyone else. We can vote for the leaders we want, and we can work to enact legislation that we believe would benefit our society.
You choosing to influence society is not the topic . You have that right , and I certainly would never try to deny it to you .
My point here is that Christians often behave in the exact ways they would hate others behaving towards them . You would not appreciate someone verbally assaulting and haranguing the female members of your family, calling them whores and sluts and such , claiming they must hate God because they won't follow Islams rules , because they don't wear the hijab. But then you and many other fundamentalist Christians seem to feel you have the right to act the very same way to those that don't share YOUR religious views on sin .
So why do you feel you have the right to act in ways towards non conservative Christians you wouldn't want aimed at you or your family ? Why is it such a tenet of your faith that even though you would oppose a Muslim continually haranguing you and your family about violating his religious rules , you insist you have the right to behave the same towards those who don't agree with YOUR religious rules ?
You choosing to influence society is not the topic . You have that right , and I certainly would never try to deny it to you .
Good to see we're in agreement on that.
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My point here is that Christians often behave in the exact ways they would hate others behaving towards them . You would not appreciate someone verbally assaulting and haranguing the female members of your family, calling them whores and sluts and such , claiming they must hate God because they won't follow Islams rules , because they don't wear the hijab. But then you and many other fundamentalist Christians seem to feel you have the right to act the very same way to those that don't share YOUR religious views on sin .
I agree. Yes, some Christians do get obnoxious. For that, I apologize. I would never walk up and accost someone, nor would I hold a "God hates --------" sign at a funeral, as the Westboro "Babtist" inbreeds do.
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So why do you feel you have the right to act in ways towards non conservative Christians you wouldn't want aimed at you or your family ? Why is it such a tenet of your faith that even though you would oppose a Muslim continually haranguing you and your family about violating his religious rules , you insist you have the right to behave the same towards those who don't agree with YOUR religious rules ?
I don't. I have never accosted a liberal Christian and told them they're going to hell. If I see a posting on an internet message board I disagree with, I will give my input.
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