Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
But I used it specifically to address unreasonable expectations about HOW an answer MUST be received because THAT is Thrill's problem. Anything that does NOT meet his expectations will not even gain consideration as a potential answer or a clue to an answer. Issues of God are ALL about our state of mind, NOT the state of physical reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
Indeed. The point is (as distinct from what may have been intended) that the arrival of the boat can be interpreted as a human rescue effort or one that is human but inspired by God (an analogy perhaps of Evolution and theistic evolution) but to reject it and insist on waiting for a divine rescue to appear was a really bad idea.
The analogy suggests that one can go with material explanations or material explanations carried out through the (postulated) agency of a divine being. But to reject the material agencies and insist of waiting for a manifestation of the divine to appear is (on human experience) a bad way to run your life.
But I used it specifically to address unreasonable expectations about HOW an answer MUST be received because THAT is Thrill's problem. Anything that does NOT meet his expectations will not even gain consideration as a potential answer or a clue to an answer. Issues of God are ALL about our state of mind, NOT the state of physical reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Mystic, have you ever stopped to ask yourself, "How is it we came to believe that issues of God are all about a state of mind?" Did you ever really stop to consider that at one time in the Old Testament it was as common as daylight for God to interact with humans in a real visible way, i.e. God talking directly to Adam and Cain, the plagues in Egypt, the column of fire at the Red Sea, the parting of the Red Sea, the fiery Mt Sinai when God boomed out the 10 Commandments to all the Israelites, etc. WHY WHY WHY did this interaction with humans suddenly stop, and from Revelation on God just totally disappeared from the scene???
Until you can answer that question convincingly and logically to us skeptics you haven't got a leg to stand on trying to convince us that issues of God are mental, not physical when the Old Testament is proof God DOES operate on the physical when He chooses.
But the answer is so obvious Thrill. They were ignorant, primitive savages who literally believed EVERYTHING that happened was done by God, including their OWN DECISIONS and ACTIONS. They were so completely clueless about reality they convinced themselves God was actually acting in response to them. They were FABLES, Thrill, reflecting the evolution of our species' understanding of God.
Mystic, have you ever stopped to ask yourself, "How is it we came to believe that issues of God are all about a state of mind?" Did you ever really stop to consider that at one time in the Old Testament it was as common as daylight for God to interact with humans in a real visible way, i.e. God talking directly to Adam and Cain, the plagues in Egypt, the column of fire at the Red Sea, the parting of the Red Sea, the fiery Mt Sinai when God boomed out the 10 Commandments to all the Israelites, etc. WHY WHY WHY did this interaction with humans suddenly stop, and from Revelation on God just totally disappeared from the scene???
Until you can answer that question convincingly and logically to us skeptics you haven't got a leg to stand on trying to convince us that issues of God are mental, not physical when the Old Testament is proof God DOES operate on the physical when He chooses.
Because Christ's redemptive work was the final action needed to redeem mankind toward God. Now, it's up to you and me to decide. What will you do with Jesus?
He could have said that without demeaning others, no?
If you are comfortable with the idea that Islam, Buddhism or Hinduism are false religions, then you need to accept the possibility that Christianity is a false religion as well.
The Son of God, the Resurrection, eternal life, etc., could all be make-believe just like the tales in those other religions.
But the answer is so obvious Thrill. They were ignorant, primitive savages who literally believed EVERYTHING that happened was done by God, including their OWN DECISIONS and ACTIONS. They were so completely clueless about reality they convinced themselves God was actually acting in response to them. They were FABLES, Thrill, reflecting the evolution of our species' understanding of God.
Ohhhhh...okay. So you're saying that God never physically interacted with humans any differently then than He does now. That puts an entirely different slant on our conversation. I was under the impression that you believed as the fundamentalists do that everything God did in the Old Testament is 100% literal--that if the Bible says Jacob wrestled with an angel, then Jacob actually physically wrestled with a supernatural being. I apologize. I must have you confused with some else...and I just realized it is...AH! I can't remember his name but he is a fundamentalist fanatic.
He could have said that without demeaning others, no?
Who was he demeaning?...All he did was express that he believes that god was invented by man. Your faith must be very weak if you think that was demeaning you.
But the answer is so obvious Thrill. They were ignorant, primitive savages who literally believed EVERYTHING that happened was done by God, including their OWN DECISIONS and ACTIONS. They were so completely clueless about reality they convinced themselves God was actually acting in response to them. They were FABLES, Thrill, reflecting the evolution of our species' understanding of God.
Actually they were so uneducated, ignorant and gullible that they were convinced that a deity actually existed.
1. The Christian politburo that has ruled the church for 1700 years made it a point to make a dumbed-down populace believe that God is present but we cannot see Him in action. Very convenient. If He cannot be seen in action then how do we know if He's really working other than just to accept it by faith. Let me tell you: "the just shall live by faith" was a rule developed by the church to fool people into believing God was present when their leaders couldn't produce a dime's worth of evidence He was. So what else could they say to make people believe God was here? FAITH. Voila. No proof needed. Just faith. What's the difference between me having faith in Krishna and you having faith in Jesus? In the end the results are the same: nothing. Christians say Jesus answered their prayers, Krishnas claim Krishnas answered theirs, but in the end I have to take your word and the word of the Krishna because neither of you can produce a shred of tangible evidence you're the one that is right. That's how faith operates. Anyone who doesn't see that faith is just a clever ruse is a rube.
2. You assume there's a chance God will call down to me. He hasn't yet, why should I suspect He is going to anytime in the near future. Have you ever asked yourself why millions of Americans and Europeans are just walking away from faith? The single biggest reason is that they see no tangible evidence of a God and God apparently is perfectly okay with losing millions of His followers because He doesn't lift a finger to stop them.
3. I want God to do at least half the work. That's how any relationship works, but He doesn't even meet me halfway. He expects me to do all the work and then what do I get for my troubles? Nothing. If my mind is closed off it's because God closed it off by His complete inaction in trying to open it for me.
But the answer is so obvious Thrill. They were ignorant, primitive savages who literally believed EVERYTHING that happened was done by God, including their OWN DECISIONS and ACTIONS. They were so completely clueless about reality they convinced themselves God was actually acting in response to them. They were FABLES, Thrill, reflecting the evolution of our species' understanding of God.
We atheists just think - unlike jimmie here...that the process didn't end with Christianity. It evolved into reason, skepticism, and finally disbelief. We don't believe in turning the clock back in order to recover that rather too easy God -explanation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej
Because Christ's redemptive work was the final action needed to redeem mankind toward God. Now, it's up to you and me to decide. What will you do with Jesus?
Strip off the overpainting of the Byzantine Christ to reveal the Historical Jew.
Ohhhhh...okay. So you're saying that God never physically interacted with humans any differently then than He does now. That puts an entirely different slant on our conversation. I was under the impression that you believed as the fundamentalists do that everything God did in the Old Testament is 100% literal--that if the Bible says Jacob wrestled with an angel, then Jacob actually physically wrestled with a supernatural being. I apologize. I must have you confused with some else...and I just realized it is...AH! I can't remember his name but he is a fundamentalist fanatic.
In many ways, Mystic and I agree that that the Bible is not reliable. It is the one time (he posted once) that he had been influenced by anything I had argued. But I gather he does believe in the Crucifixion as some form of Divine - engineered event. I don't. I just see it as a Roman execution of a troublemaker.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I can't remember his name but he is a fundamentalist fanatic.
