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I did read and I remembered (but it isn't improbable that I might not have). Your bible scholarship is impressive, Arq, always has been. Letting it determine the feasibility of the existence of God is where you are misled, IMO.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
It evidently misled you, old chum. It only leads me to doubt that followers of Jesus wrote the gospels, that it records anything of what he said and discounts a lot of what he supposedly did, and pretty much debunks (if I am not far out) the Christian Jesus, but supports an historical (Jewish) Jesus. It only reflects on Biblegod in a circumstantial way, and on your Cosmic Mind - god, has nothing to say at all. I'm surprised that you think it has.
Not really. Jesus had to die eventually. We all do. The manner of His death simply reflected the brutality of the times. But the significance of His response to it remains as the main lesson to be taken from the narrative, historicity notwithstanding.
It's never a surprise for God not to contact (in the past) someone openly admitted (right now) that he has little faith.
It is the saying that "all are invited but only a few are chosen".
If God invites a bunch of people to a party and then only chooses a few of them to go inside to the party we have names for that kind of a person: it's a 7-letter word that begins with "a" and ends with "e" and is two-syllable and that's exactly what God is if that's the way He operates.
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sin-incompatible God
The idea of a God incompatible with sin is a completely man-made concept dating right back to the first pages of the fairy tale of Adam and Eve and a talking snake. There are two ways to look at this stuff: it is so silly it's beyond comprehension a sane person could swallow it, or it's all totally true based on 4000 year old stories handed down generation after generation by Stone Age goat herders that somehow survived up to a civilized 21-st century crowd of gullible worshipers. Those are the only two choices you've got.
Not really. Jesus had to die eventually. We all do. The manner of His death simply reflected the brutality of the times. But the significance of His response to it remains as the main lesson to be taken from the narrative, historicity notwithstanding.
Ah.Then you don't concur with my argument that it was a crucifixion in the usual unpleasant Roman way and that all the dialogue and action (particularly where it is discrepant) is invented and cannot be taken as an indication of what Jesus said, did or who or what he was?
P.s I can't resist pointing out that if one does trust the story as reliable, Jesus may have died eventually, but it wasn't on the cross.
P. p.s.In any case, while this is only circumstantially related to the god of the Bible, I don't myself see it as saying anything about my views on the case for a possible Cosmic creator. If you do, that is your take, not mine.
Ah.Then you don't concur with my argument that it was a crucifixion in the usual unpleasant Roman way and that all the dialogue and action (particularly where it is discrepant) is invented and cannot be taken as an indication of what Jesus said, did or who or what he was?
P.s I can't resist pointing out that if one does trust the story as reliable, Jesus may have died eventually, but it wasn't on the cross.
P. p.s.In any case, while this is only circumstantially related to the god of the Bible, I don't myself see it as saying anything about my views on the case for a possible Cosmic creator. If you do, that is your take, not mine.
I think it may very well not be a real story. But it's a good story, nonetheless, and Jesus' response (as either a representative of God, or actually God, depending on how one reads the story/myth) of forgiveness, was a vital message to a world that believed that God/gods were angry with them, and holding their sins against them.
I found an intriguing description of what a person experienced in a NDE:
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I knew the story I was taught in Sunday school as a child did not fit with my experience on the other side. There is just no way God would ever throw me or any other of God's creations into some lake of fire forever to be punished eternallyand I know that because I was there and no other man made belief system will ever take that away from me and I am deeply grateful I no longer live in fear of that. It took me a very long time to stop believing in the fear based belief system I was taught in East Texas.FEAR is an acronym which means False Beliefs Appearing Real.FEAR is non-existent on the other side and nothing negative can exist there.
I was loved and accepted by my Creator just as I am, mistakes and all,
and knew I was a child of God that is loved no matter what my behavior. Just as a parent will always love their child no matter what mistakes they make here on Earth, although they may disapprove and even abhor some of their child's behavior, they still love their children no matter what. The environment itself on the other side prevents any negativity via a different set of spiritual laws that permeate the "mansion" my Creator gave me a glimpse of and it changed everything regarding my beliefs before the experience. I had no other choice but to change my beliefs because it was literally thrust upon me in a manner that was undeniable from that point onward. I now personally believe all things are allowed and all things have meaning and purpose.
So when I say this idiot concept of a God being totally incompatible with sin, however you define sin, is just total man-made dogmatic rubbish, I mean TOTAL RUBBISH!. Do yourselves a favor and throw it away. No one is a bigger purveyor of FEAR than Christians.
The entire religious structure of fundamentalist leadership is like a large altar. The four pillars that hold the altar up are Power, Privilege, Sex and Money. The giant granite slab that sit atop the pillars is engraved with huge letters: F_E_A_R!
I think it may very well not be a real story. But it's a good story, nonetheless, and Jesus' response (as either a representative of God, or actually God, depending on how one reads the story/myth) of forgiveness, was a vital message to a world that believed that God/gods were angry with them, and holding their sins against them.
If only I could clone your mind into the other posters here, Pleroo. All the narratives in the spiritual fossil record reflect our species' understanding of God at various stages of our spiritual evolution. It is easy to see the increased sophistication of the narratives up to and including the Jesus narrative. It is not a stretch to infer that our consciousness is being influenced toward this increasing sophistication and understanding. There is no reason to assume it has ever ceased. It is only the benighted and absurd belief in an unchanging narrative fostered and promoted by dogmatic religions that have caused the kind of idiotic and anachronistic beliefs we have today despite massive increases in our knowledge and understanding.
I'm surprised that you haven't sen the observation that a good idea (or what comes to be seen as one) in a story does not make the story itself of any value, let alone true. It is the ongoing claim,it seems,that anything we find that is worthwhile is evidence than a divine mind intentionally put it there.
If that is the belief you wish was cloned into my head, I am fine with my head the way it is.
I'm surprised that you haven't sen the observation that a good idea (or what comes to be seen as one) in a story does not make the story itself of any value, let alone true. It is the ongoing claim,it seems,that anything we find that is worthwhile is evidence than a divine mind intentionally put it there.
If that is the belief you wish was cloned into my head, I am fine with my head the way it is.
You may be missing the (or just my) point. It does not matter if the story is true, and it doesn't even matter if the mind behind the story was divine or human. What matters is that much of humanity was laboring under a belief that God or gods were angry with them - they were prisoners of fear and superstition. The story, when believed, began to free humanity (or a portion of it) from that prison. Its an ongoing process. I'm not saying the story was even necessarily the only thing that played a role in that, but I do think it was pretty key.
Just my thoughts, and perhaps they are half-baked.
If only I could clone your mind into the other posters here, Pleroo. All the narratives in the spiritual fossil record reflect our species' understanding of God at various stages of our spiritual evolution. It is easy to see the increased sophistication of the narratives up to and including the Jesus narrative. It is not a stretch to infer that our consciousness is being influenced toward this increasing sophistication and understanding. There is no reason to assume it has ever ceased. It is only the benighted and absurd belief in an unchanging narrative fostered and promoted by dogmatic religions that have caused the kind of idiotic and anachronistic beliefs we have today despite massive increases in our knowledge and understanding.
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
You may be missing the (or just my) point. It does not matter if the story is true, and it doesn't even matter if the mind behind the story was divine or human. What matters is that much of humanity was laboring under a belief that God or gods were angry with them - they were prisoners of fear and superstition. The story, when believed, began to free humanity (or a portion of it) from that prison. Its an ongoing process. I'm not saying the story was even necessarily the only thing that played a role in that, but I do think it was pretty key.
Just my thoughts, and perhaps they are half-baked.
There are a plethora of half-baked thoughts on the forum, Pleroo, but yours are NOT among them. Arq and others simply do not buy the idea that there is a Cosmic Consciousness guiding and influencing each and every one of our human consciousnesses toward a specific character. I admit it is hard to imagine it given the myriad and frequently unsavory characters within humanity. I would not be very sanguine about the concept if I had not been personally subject to a powerfully persuasive experience of it. However, viewed through the lens of the Cosmic Consciousness concept, the recorded human speculation reveals a surprisingly optimistic picture cognitively even though our physical and worldly antics and accomplishments are less than encouraging.
There are a plethora of half-baked thoughts on the forum, Pleroo, but yours are NOT among them. Arq and others simply do not buy the idea that there is a Cosmic Consciousness guiding and influencing each and every one of our human consciousnesses toward a specific character. I admit it is hard to imagine it given the myriad and frequently unsavory characters within humanity. I would not be very sanguine about the concept if I had not been personally subject to a powerfully persuasive experience of it. However, viewed through the lens of the Cosmic Consciousness concept, the recorded human speculation reveals a surprisingly optimistic picture cognitively even though our physical and worldly antics and accomplishments are less than encouraging.
I don't think they need to. I haven't bought it myself, though you know I'm open to the idea and would find it very satisfying to discover it was true.
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). Your bible scholarship is impressive, Arq, always has been. Letting it determine the feasibility of the existence of God is where you are misled, IMO.
All the narratives in the spiritual fossil record reflect our species' understanding of God at various stages of our spiritual evolution. It is easy to see the increased sophistication of the narratives up to and including the Jesus narrative. It is not a stretch to infer that our consciousness is being influenced toward this increasing sophistication and understanding. There is no reason to assume it has ever ceased. It is only the benighted and absurd belief in an unchanging narrative fostered and promoted by dogmatic religions that have caused the kind of idiotic and anachronistic beliefs we have today despite massive increases in our knowledge and understanding.
