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::Sigh::The ONLY way God intervenes here physically is through other human beings. The only direct interventions are spiritually in our heart and mind (consciousness). You are continuously encountering others who present ways of understanding God and your relationship to Him. You seem deaf to them in your frustration and anger so you are missing any possibilities to hear His actual answers for you. You want God to do all the work of finding Him among the many beliefs ABOUT Him out there. As long as your mind is closeted off by your frustration and anger at the many absurd beliefs ABOUT God, you will miss the truth when you encounter it.
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte
1. The Christian politburo that has ruled the church for 1700 years made it a point to make a dumbed-down populace believe that God is present but we cannot see Him in action. Very convenient. If He cannot be seen in action then how do we know if He's really working other than just to accept it by faith. Let me tell you: "the just shall live by faith" was a rule developed by the church to fool people into believing God was present when their leaders couldn't produce a dime's worth of evidence He was. So what else could they say to make people believe God was here? FAITH. Voila. No proof needed. Just faith. What's the difference between me having faith in Krishna and you having faith in Jesus? In the end the results are the same: nothing. Christians say Jesus answered their prayers, Krishnas claim Krishnas answered theirs, but in the end I have to take your word and the word of the Krishna because neither of you can produce a shred of tangible evidence you're the one that is right. That's how faith operates. Anyone who doesn't see that faith is just a clever ruse is a rube.
2. You assume there's a chance God will call down to me. He hasn't yet, why should I suspect He is going to anytime in the near future. Have you ever asked yourself why millions of Americans and Europeans are just walking away from faith? The single biggest reason is that they see no tangible evidence of a God and God apparently is perfectly okay with losing millions of His followers because He doesn't lift a finger to stop them.
3. I want God to do at least half the work. That's how any relationship works, but He doesn't even meet me halfway. He expects me to do all the work and then what do I get for my troubles? Nothing. If my mind is closed off it's because God closed it off by His complete inaction in trying to open it for me.
You remind me of the story about a man sitting on top of his house during rising flood waters asking God to save him. Three times people came to help him in different ways and he refused them all waiting for God to do it. Ultimately he drowned. Your expectations about HOW God is supposed to reach out to you is causing you to miss any and all ways he might be reaching out to you through others, Thrill. Your expectations are the problem. It is NOT God.
You remind me of the story about a man sitting on top of his house during rising flood waters asking God to save him. Three times people came to help him in different ways and he refused them all waiting for God to do it. Ultimately he drowned. Your expectations about HOW God is supposed to reach out to you is causing you to miss any and all ways he might be reaching out to you through others, Thrill. Your expectations are the problem. It is NOT God.
Mystic, who sent the boat to rescue the guy on the roof, God or FEMA? And if you say God sent FEMA to rescue the guy then how do you know FEMA didn't act unilaterally? Where's your proof? You can believe God sent FEMA and I can believe that God had nothing to do with FEMA boats floating by and in the end who's right, you or me?
Fair enough. But the comments can also expect comments. We see the rather inevitable false rationale of "mad at God" or "something must be wrong with the fellow" in order to avoid the unwelcome conclusion that he could no longer brainwash himself into believing what was not worthy of belief.
He could have said that without demeaning others, no?
You remind me of the story about a man sitting on top of his house during rising flood waters asking God to save him. Three times people came to help him in different ways and he refused them all waiting for God to do it. Ultimately he drowned. Your expectations about HOW God is supposed to reach out to you is causing you to miss any and all ways he might be reaching out to you through others, Thrill. Your expectations are the problem. It is NOT God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
Mystic, who sent the boat to rescue the guy on the roof, God or FEMA? And if you say God sent FEMA to rescue the guy then how do you know FEMA didn't act unilaterally? Where's your proof? You can believe God sent FEMA and I can believe that God had nothing to do with FEMA boats floating by and in the end who's right, you or me?
I fear you missed the point of the example completely, Thrill. Your expectations for some unequivocally direct "supernatural" unmistakably miraculous intervention in your life is not looking for meeting you halfway. It demands God come all the way. Why do you deserve such special treatment, Thrill??? It is your state of mind that is important to God, NOT any physical or worldly event. We ALL must become independent and self-reliant as God is, NOT dependent. Clearly, you are too carnal-minded and not yet spiritual-minded. That will take more time and maturity.
He could have said that without demeaning others, no?
Even if the tone was demeaning, that doesn't invalidate the point. We goddless bastards have to put up with being put down all the time. We shrug it off and address the point. We don't use it as a pretext to avoid it.
I fear you missed the point of the example completely, Thrill. Your expectations for some unequivocally direct "supernatural" unmistakably miraculous intervention in your life is not looking for meeting you halfway. It demands God come all the way. Why do you deserve such special treatment, Thrill??? It is your state of mind that is important to God, NOT any physical or worldly event. We ALL must become independent and self-reliant as God is, NOT dependent. Clearly, you are too carnal-minded and not yet spiritual-minded. That will take more time and maturity.
I'm sure you must have seen the point of the response. The story suggests that no god sent anything and all that happened was Godfaith preventing the victim from making use of the opportunity to better his situation.
::Sigh::The ONLY way God intervenes here physically is through other human beings. The only direct interventions are spiritually in our heart and mind (consciousness). You are continuously encountering others who present ways of understanding God and your relationship to Him. You seem deaf to them in your frustration and anger so you are missing any possibilities to hear His actual answers for you. You want God to do all the work of finding Him among the many beliefs ABOUT Him out there. As long as your mind is closeted off by your frustration and anger at the many absurd beliefs ABOUT God, you will miss the truth when you encounter it.
Mystic, this is why deists and Christians and frankly any non-Christians will never see eye to eye with Christians: because Christians just are incapable of realizing that the concept of "Faith" was developed as a means to address the problem of not being able to prove to pagans that Jesus was the "real" god. Jesus was competing with dozens of other gods at the time and churchmen had to come up with something to address the pagans' persistent question, "Why should I give up my god to accept yours?" Churchmen looked at each other quizzically scratched their collective heads and said to each other, "How on earth do we answer THAT??" Then one of them had that proverbial lightbulb go on over his head and said, "I've got it. We tell them 'We cannot prove to you we are right, you just have to have faith we are and God will save your soul. But if you don't have faith in Jesus, then God will condemn you to eternal fire in hell." And that's how the doctrine of faith was born. And you and all the other Christians have been sucked into this phony doctrine of "the just shall live by faith". In reality the verse should read, "the dopes shall live by faith."
I fear you missed the point of the example completely, Thrill. Your expectations for some unequivocally direct "supernatural" unmistakably miraculous intervention in your life is not looking for meeting you halfway. It demands God come all the way. Why do you deserve such special treatment, Thrill??? It is your state of mind that is important to God, NOT any physical or worldly event. We ALL must become independent and self-reliant as God is, NOT dependent. Clearly, you are too carnal-minded and not yet spiritual-minded. That will take more time and maturity.
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Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER
I'm sure you must have seen the point of the response. The story suggests that no god sent anything and all that happened was Godfaith preventing the victim from making use of the opportunity to better his situation.
But I used it specifically to address unreasonable expectations about HOW an answer MUST be received because THAT is Thrill's problem. Anything that does NOT meet his expectations will not even gain consideration as a potential answer or a clue to an answer. Issues of God are ALL about our state of mind, NOT the state of physical reality.
But I used it specifically to address unreasonable expectations about HOW an answer MUST be received because THAT is Thrill's problem. Anything that does NOT meet his expectations will not even gain consideration as a potential answer or a clue to an answer. Issues of God are ALL about our state of mind, NOT the state of physical reality.
Indeed. The point is (as distinct from what may have been intended) that the arrival of the boat can be interpreted as a human rescue effort or one that is human but inspired by God (an analogy perhaps of Evolution and theistic evolution) but to reject it and insist on waiting for a divine rescue to appear was a really bad idea.
The analogy suggests that one can go with material explanations or material explanations carried out through the (postulated) agency of a divine being. But to reject the material agencies and insist of waiting for a manifestation of the divine to appear is (on human experience) a bad way to run your life.
Mystic, have you ever stopped to ask yourself, "How is it we came to believe that issues of God are all about a state of mind?" Did you ever really stop to consider that at one time in the Old Testament it was as common as daylight for God to interact with humans in a real visible way, i.e. God talking directly to Adam and Cain, the plagues in Egypt, the column of fire at the Red Sea, the parting of the Red Sea, the fiery Mt Sinai when God boomed out the 10 Commandments to all the Israelites, etc. WHY WHY WHY did this interaction with humans suddenly stop, and from Revelation on God just totally disappeared from the scene???
Until you can answer that question convincingly and logically to us skeptics you haven't got a leg to stand on trying to convince us that issues of God are mental, not physical when the Old Testament is proof God DOES operate on the physical when He chooses.
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