The world would be more peaceful without religion - 86% agree (souls, believe)

[DewDropInn]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Hitler used religion to appease the masses and gain more power. Private quotes show that he was anti-Christian and worshiped science and man:

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death. A slow death has something comforting about it. The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble." Adolf Hitler 1941

Sure sounds atheist to me! I bet you would even applaud that statement.

It doesn't matter what it "sounds" like to you. You claimed facts about Hitler, et al that are not true. You've made the same claims previously and were corrected. I know because I was one of the posters who corrected you.

You're trying to change history to suit your agenda. Is that covered under 'lying for Jesus'?

[jeffbase40]

Originally Posted by DewDropInn

It doesn't matter what it "sounds" like to you. You claimed facts about Hitler, et al that are not true. You've made the same claims previously and were corrected. I know because I was one of the posters who corrected you.

You're trying to change history to suit your agenda. Is that covered under 'lying for Jesus'?

So you got proof that Hitler never said such things? Let's hear it. And that's ignoring the FACT that Hitler did some extremely un-Christian things. By their fruits you will know them. And Hitler didn't have any good fruits. There is no possible way Hitler was a Christian.

We are now seeing what happens to society when you turn away from God. Hate and violence becomes the fruits. I wonder if we can make a month before the next mass shooting in America.

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

How so? I enjoy burgers and chicken, but animals have to be harmed so I guess eating that burger is immoral in your wacky ideology. Thankfully I have no problem with animals being a food source.

I do. So did my sister. She was actually vegetarian for a while, but couldn't continue with it. These are moral problems we do wrestle with, as we should if we are moral beings. That you have no problem with it, shows the thin end of a rather nasty wedge that is affixed to religion.

I have a problem with abortion, too. yes, I do. There are two sides to the argument. You of course only see one side - because you see it as a religious dogma argument, not a moral one. There is a solution, though not perfect. And I'm sure you wouldn't like it

[TRANSPONDER]

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

So you got proof that Hitler never said such things? Let's hear it. And that's ignoring the FACT that Hitler did some extremely un-Christian things. By their fruits you will know them. And Hitler didn't have any good fruits. There is no possible way Hitler was a Christian.

We are now seeing what happens to society when you turn away from God. Hate and violence becomes the fruits. I wonder if we can make a month before the next mass shooting in America.

That is not what we said. Hitler did indeed say such things but you took them out of context -which was explained to you. He despised Christianity as weak, but he did believe in God and even Jesus. He would not tolerate atheism.

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith ...we need believing people."

- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."
- Adolf Hitler, Speech in Berlin, October 24, 1933

In his speech before the Reichstag on Mach 23, 1933, just before the Enable Act is passed, Adolf Hitler claims that atheistic organizations are a danger and furthermore that the government must promote religion:
"By its decision to carry out the political and moral cleansing of our public life, the Government is creating and securing the conditions for a really deep and inner religious life.
The advantages for the individual which may be derived from compromises with atheistic organizations do not compare in any way with the consequences which are visible in the destruction of our common religious and ethical values."

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

- Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, 1941

"And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God; because then, as always, they used religion as a means of advancing their commercial interests. But at that time Christ was nailed to the Cross for his attitude towards the Jews; whereas our modern Christians enter into party politics and when elections are being held they debase themselves to beg for Jewish votes. They even enter into political intrigues with the atheistic Jewish parties against the interests of their own Christian nation."

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11

"The fact that the Catholic Church has come to an agreement with Fascist Italy ...proves beyond doubt that the Fascist world of ideas is closer to Christianity than those of Jewish liberalism or even atheistic Marxism..."

- Adolf Hitler in an article in the Völkischer Beobachter, February 29, 1929, on the new Lateran Treaty between Mussolini's fascist government and the Vatican

"The national Government sees in both Christian denominations the most important factor for the maintenance of our society. ..."
- Adolf Hitler, speech before the Reichstag, March 23, 1933, just before the Enabling Act is passed.

"Today Christians ... stand at the head of [this country]... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .."

"We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ..."- Adolf Hitler, quoted in: The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872

In a 1922 speech, he said:

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

The NSDAP Party Program stated:

“We demand freedom for all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or conflict with the customs and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession....”

http://atheism.about.com/od/isatheis...lerAtheist.htm

The site (which is oriented towards religion, so far as I can tell) says this:-

"Key to understanding Nazism’s popularity with Christians is the Nazi condemnation of everything modern. The Weimar Republic was regarded by a large percentage of Christians in Germany as a godless, secular, and materialistic, betraying all of Germany’s traditional values and religious beliefs. Christians saw the social fabric of their community unravelling, and the Nazis promised to restore order by attacking godlessness, homosexuality, abortion, liberalism, prostitution, pornography, obscenity, etc."

He was not an atheist. Even had he been, and the Nazi dogma had been atheistic, like Marxism, that would be bad because it was Dogmatic, not because it was atheist. It would have been interesting to present the sentiments of those quotes (changing "Catholic" to "Christian" of course), to see how much of it you disagreed with.

I will leave it for others to comment on the familiar fundamentalist Dogma that taking religion out of schools is directly related to the perceived increase in immorality, crime and violence.

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER

That is not what we said. Hitler did indeed say such things but you took them out of context -which was explained to you. He despised Christianity as weak, but he did believe in God and even Jesus. He would not tolerate atheism.

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith ...we need believing people."

- Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out."
- Adolf Hitler, Speech in Berlin, October 24, 1933

In his speech before the Reichstag on Mach 23, 1933, just before the Enable Act is passed, Adolf Hitler claims that atheistic organizations are a danger and furthermore that the government must promote religion:
"By its decision to carry out the political and moral cleansing of our public life, the Government is creating and securing the conditions for a really deep and inner religious life.
The advantages for the individual which may be derived from compromises with atheistic organizations do not compare in any way with the consequences which are visible in the destruction of our common religious and ethical values."

"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."

- Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, 1941

"And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God; because then, as always, they used religion as a means of advancing their commercial interests. But at that time Christ was nailed to the Cross for his attitude towards the Jews; whereas our modern Christians enter into party politics and when elections are being held they debase themselves to beg for Jewish votes. They even enter into political intrigues with the atheistic Jewish parties against the interests of their own Christian nation."

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11

"The fact that the Catholic Church has come to an agreement with Fascist Italy ...proves beyond doubt that the Fascist world of ideas is closer to Christianity than those of Jewish liberalism or even atheistic Marxism..."

- Adolf Hitler in an article in the Völkischer Beobachter, February 29, 1929, on the new Lateran Treaty between Mussolini's fascist government and the Vatican

"The national Government sees in both Christian denominations the most important factor for the maintenance of our society. ..."
- Adolf Hitler, speech before the Reichstag, March 23, 1933, just before the Enabling Act is passed.

"Today Christians ... stand at the head of [this country]... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .."

"We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ..."- Adolf Hitler, quoted in: The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872

In a 1922 speech, he said:

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter."

The NSDAP Party Program stated:

“We demand freedom for all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or conflict with the customs and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession....”

Hitler Killed Millions in the Name of Atheism?

The site (which is oriented towards religion, so far as I can tell) says this:-

"Key to understanding Nazism’s popularity with Christians is the Nazi condemnation of everything modern. The Weimar Republic was regarded by a large percentage of Christians in Germany as a godless, secular, and materialistic, betraying all of Germany’s traditional values and religious beliefs. Christians saw the social fabric of their community unravelling, and the Nazis promised to restore order by attacking godlessness, homosexuality, abortion, liberalism, prostitution, pornography, obscenity, etc."

He was not an atheist. Even had he been, and the Nazi dogma had been atheistic, like Marxism, that would be bad because it was Dogmatic, not because it was atheist. It would have been interesting to present the sentiments of those quotes (changing "Catholic" to "Christian" of course), to see how much of it you disagreed with.

I will leave it for others to comment on the familiar fundamentalist Dogma that taking religion out of schools is directly related to the perceived increase in immorality, crime and violence.

Bookmarked to quote mine in future responses, here and elsewhere! Brilliant and thanks.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by jimmiej

But we do have better education and still the human population overwhelmingly believes in a god/creator/religion.

Where there is better education such as in Europe, less and less people believe in gods. Only in America where standards of education are poor and Africa and other undeveloped countries do people overwhelmingly believe in superstitious nonsense about gods.

Originally Posted by jeffbase40

Yes society is so much more peaceful when an atheist ruler takes over. Examples from history:

Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,00 people murdered
Jozef Stalin (USSR 1932-39 only) 15,000,000 people murdered
Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000 people murdered
Kim II Sung (North Korea 1948-94) 1.6 million people murdered
Tito (Yugoslavia 1945-1987) 570,000 people murdered
Suharto (Communists 1967-66) 500,000 people murdered
Ante Pavelic (Croatia 1941-45) 359,000 people murdered
Ho Chi Min (Vietnam 1953-56) 200,000 people murdered
Vladimir Ilich Lenin (USSR, 1917-20) 30,000 people murdered
Adolf Hitler (Germany 1939-1945) 12,000,000 people murdered.

No, not examples of history but examples of your appalling ignorance of history.

[jeffbase40]

Originally Posted by TRANSPONDER

That is not what we said. Hitler did indeed say such things but you took them out of context -which was explained to you. He despised Christianity as weak, but he did believe in God and even Jesus. He would not tolerate atheism.



"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith ...we need believing people."

Typical distortion. You have not presented any evidence to show that I taken my quote out of context yet you do the very same thing! You present quotes that were in the context of Hitler's rise to power. Newsflash, politicians will say ANYTHING to get elected. Hitler would have said he loves to cuddle with puppies if that meant the public would get behind him. Once you get power, then you control with fear to gain more power.

Even if he truly believed in his heart that God and Jesus existed, a mere belief is not equivalent to people who worship and practice faith. Hitler did not practice Christianity. He was not a Christian. He was an example of how morality goes off the rails when you start worshipping science and the creation instead of the creator.

North Korea is a modern example of life in an atheistic regime. It's not a paradise. It's hell.

[Vizio]

Originally Posted by cupper3

Really? What creed or dogma do that great big gathering of atheists follow? What 2000 year old fairy tales do they let be a major influence in their lives?

The one that started with Satan in the garden -- "Surely you won't die....."

[cupper3]

Originally Posted by Vizio

The one that started with Satan in the garden -- "Surely you won't die....."

Phffffft.

We all will die. And all become wormfood. So, make the best of your life and be the best for others, while you can. Then feed other organisms, which others may use for nourishment. When our sun finally explodes and becomes a blackhole, our dispersed atoms that have built us will scatter into the universe.

Cool, huh? We do live on, just not in a sentient way.

[Rafius]

Originally Posted by jimmiej

Religion does much good, but it's not newsworthy. While Westboro BC is yelling, "God hates ****!", millions of Christians are sharing redemption in Christ, feeding and clothing the poor, and building hospitals.

Millions of atheists are feeding and clothing the poor and building hospitals too. The difference is that atheists are not shouting "God hates ****!"

Originally Posted by jimmiej

It's not the same group doing both!

Your experience is not mine. I see hundreds of people every year changing their life for the better, when they encounter the love and forgiveness of God.

I see hundreds of people every year changing their life for the better, when they throw of the shackles of superstitious beliefs.

Originally Posted by Hannibal Flavius

...without religion, we would not be where we are today,....

Very true. We would be far more advanced than we are today.

....I seriously doubt we would have ever had a technology era of growth...

You surely jest! Religion...and particularly Christianity has held back science and technology for the past 500 years and it still does so today. In addition to holding back science and technology, we have Catholics suppressing evidence of child abuse.

Catholics causing women to die rather than allowing them to have abortions.

Baptists supporting a bill that would mean the death penalty for homosexuals in Uganda.

JW letting children die rather than letting them have blood transfusions.

Christianity fighting stem cell research, which could save hundreds of thousands of lives.

Muslims stoning women to death for not wearing the required clothes.

Originally Posted by jimmiej

But we do have better education and still the human population overwhelmingly believes in a god/creator/religion.

Better education only works if people are prepared to accept it. There is no benefit from better education if, as in the case of religion, people choose wilful ignorance instead.