The validity of religious experience as evidence (trinity, believe, Lord)
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atheists proselytizing are just as offensive as anyone else who proselytizes
anyone who is militant, strident, in-your-face and claims to have "the truth" is cut from the same cloth
What agnostic or atheist have claimed their way is the only way ? I don't see this with any of them .
What agnostic or atheist have claimed their way is the only way ? I don't see this with any of them .
I've seen many of the 'tests' people set up, and this does cut both ways (well all 4 since everyone gets so specific on this forum: theist, deist, atheist, agnostic) on 'I am defining what is proof', etc... So whoever is advocating those tests is indeed proselytizing. It's why I engage in so few of these. Not because I'm scared of the debate: there really is no debate.
I believe in pretty much every scientific principle out there, with some healthy skepticism on some (that are directly economically impactful). I have a medical, aeronautical, nutritional, and data science background.
Through certain life experiences, I moved from believing in no guiding force to belief in something I can't really quantify. The particulars aren't important but it's been an affect on multiple people.
I don't study the bible to quote what is right and wrong. Frankly I don't see the point. As I understand things, practice love and forgiveness and try to be understanding.
My beliefs have little impact on my societal and political leanings. None actually. Nor education wise.
However, when I was transitioning from atheist to theist, all I heard was the typical 'prove it' rhetoric. There is no reason for me to prove my experience to anyone. Actually discussions with my atheist friends over decades had me defending 'religion' from some rather nasty condescending language. Conversely, I've had my brushes with 'fundies' as people refer to them, 'damning me' for my beliefs.
So, in short, I just kinda laugh at both. My experience may ultimately take me in another direction. I just keep an open mind and try to 'listen' now as know matter how much our science advances, we'll still be left with some of those eternal questions.
John Lilly said: In the realm of mind, whatever one thinks - is real.
At first I was all excited about this and began thinking I was 25 years old again, independently wealthy, and off the charts IQ. But nothing happened. I'm still 59, unable to retire and only smart enough to be dangerous.
I do not understand why a person would think that their personal experience or feelings would trump that which we all consider to be God's inspired word.
Personal experience doesn't trump the scriptures exactly, but the choice of WHICH scripture and which INTERPRETATIVE SYSTEM you use to decide what that scripture actually says, is just as personal and subjective ultimately as are subjective personal experiences.
In other words you are claiming your chosen scripture and interpretation thereof "trumps" some random idea coming from between someone's ears, but I don't see HOW it does the trumping. The fact that it's in writing clearly doesn't make matters plainer because it's still at the mercy of people's comprehension and interpretation. People using the scriptures still disagree on substantive things, just as people's personal experiences and feelings differ with those of others.
a person only has to validate it for themself / not for anyone else
we validate it for ourself by developing discernment in our own daily life and relationships
Indeed if you're not making your insights binding on anyone but yourself you are free to believe what you will. And while I think "developing discernment" is a rather vague metric for validating it to oneself, that's a matter of no concern to anyone but the believer either, assuming again that the believer holds the belief as personal and non-binding on others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzaphkiel
do you truly live by "any body can be lying about anything, so I don't ever believe what anyone ever says about anything unless there is scientific evidence?"
This is a completely separate matter, how you determine the credibility of things other people say, or the probability of their conclusions or beliefs about things being likely to be true.
I just got a phone call from my brother this morning in which he related some unexplained experience he had in the aftermath of the death of his cat. My brother is in most things the most credible person I know. But he is bereaved right now, and heck, even I was tempted to think I was getting messages from my dead wife right after she died simply because I heard a particular mutual favorite song on the radio at a fortuitous moment. So I am not giving much credence to his experience at a time when he's not thinking clearly. Instead I am being present and listening to him. And suggesting that sometimes unexplained things happen, and when that occurs, it's best to just allow them to be unexplained until such time as a good explanation presents itself.
He called me because I'm one person on this earth who won't tell him he's crazy, and I didn't. But that doesn't mean I encouraged his brain to cast about for the most questionable possible pattern match to provide him with an "explanation", either.
this is an excellent question
and it is the best method for validation
does experiencing this and applying this in my daily life and in my relationships with others, result in an increase of peace, kindness, compassion, generosity, loving kindness, gentle words, honesty in business, respect, dignity, contentment, helping others, humbleness, recognizing every person has equal access to the Divine, finding good in others, offering encouragement.
....or does it result in an increase of brutality, violence, lying, cheating, stealing, dishonesty, harsh words, hostility, harming others, arrogance, insisting there is only one right way to get to God, finding fault in others, anger, greed, feelings of superiority, supremacy.
since the very nature and essence of God is loving kindness and truth and peace, then that is a reliable compass in navigating and discernment in both the secular and spiritual terrain.
That is not a bad question to ask yourself but it is not a question that is going to answer "is it authentic". It is going to attempt to answer the question "is it beneficial on balance, or harmful on balance"? And then assuming you can really attribute increase or decrease in the subjective quality of one's thinking or conduct, to that one thing and that one thing only -- you have at least answered an important question. But it does not answer the question, did this message really come from "the Divine" or from in between your own ears?
I've seen many of the 'tests' people set up, and this does cut both ways (well all 4 since everyone gets so specific on this forum: theist, deist, atheist, agnostic) on 'I am defining what is proof', etc... So whoever is advocating those tests is indeed proselytizing. It's why I engage in so few of these. Not because I'm scared of the debate: there really is no debate.
I believe in pretty much every scientific principle out there, with some healthy skepticism on some (that are directly economically impactful). I have a medical, aeronautical, nutritional, and data science background.
Through certain life experiences, I moved from believing in no guiding force to belief in something I can't really quantify. The particulars aren't important but it's been an affect on multiple people.
I don't study the bible to quote what is right and wrong. Frankly I don't see the point. As I understand things, practice love and forgiveness and try to be understanding.
My beliefs have little impact on my societal and political leanings. None actually. Nor education wise.
However, when I was transitioning from atheist to theist, all I heard was the typical 'prove it' rhetoric. There is no reason for me to prove my experience to anyone. Actually discussions with my atheist friends over decades had me defending 'religion' from some rather nasty condescending language. Conversely, I've had my brushes with 'fundies' as people refer to them, 'damning me' for my beliefs.
So, in short, I just kinda laugh at both. My experience may ultimately take me in another direction. I just keep an open mind and try to 'listen' now as know matter how much our science advances, we'll still be left with some of those eternal questions.
It depends on the reason for the " test". If someone say, as Viz recently did, that you can't make atheists believe the evidence of God, then the response is going to be " what evidence ?" . There is no need for anyone to prove their personal beliefs . There is plenty of valid reasoning to ask those theists that make claims about God beyond their personal belief to provide evidence to support their statements . And questioning the claims of others isnt attacking them . This seems to be the latest trend on CD , to take any disagreement as a personal vindictive attack upon the beliefs of another . I don't know why anyone would bother to participate here if they were going to read every disagreement as an attack upon their person and their beliefs . Find a less stressful pasttime than getting bent out of shape over some posts on CD .
That is not a bad question to ask yourself but it is not a question that is going to answer "is it authentic". It is going to attempt to answer the question "is it beneficial on balance, or harmful on balance"? And then assuming you can really attribute increase or decrease in the subjective quality of one's thinking or conduct, to that one thing and that one thing only -- you have at least answered an important question. But it does not answer the question, did this message really come from "the Divine" or from in between your own ears?
That's the very essence to the believer or non believer: are those experiences originating in our brain or from some external unexplained voice many call God? As long as it's not pushed on others, it doesn't matter. Conversely, in conversation, I think your explanation about your brothers cat is correct. Leave the unexplained until there is an explanation, which, may never come.
Nothing wrong with a little mystery.
Btw, sorry about your brothers cat
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